Superman Through the Ages! Forum

The Superman Family! => Other Superfriends => Topic started by: Michel Weisnor on March 07, 2007, 10:48:57 AM



Title: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Michel Weisnor on March 07, 2007, 10:48:57 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/503132p-424376c.html

"Comic book deaths, however, are rarely final. Marvel's archrival, DC Comics, provoked a media frenzy when it killed off Superman in 1993, only to reanimate its prize creation a year later.

Joe Quesada, 43, Marvel Entertainment's editor in chief, said he wouldn't rule out the shield-throwing champion's eventual return. But for now, the Captain's fans are in mourning." NYDailyNews.com




Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: VanZee on March 07, 2007, 11:34:50 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/503132p-424376c.html

"Comic book deaths, however, are rarely final. Marvel's archrival, DC Comics, provoked a media frenzy when it killed off Superman in 1993, only to reanimate its prize creation a year later.

Joe Quesada, 43, Marvel Entertainment's editor in chief, said he wouldn't rule out the shield-throwing champion's eventual return. But for now, the Captain's fans are in mourning." NYDailyNews.com


Well, actually Marvel already gunned him down: http://www.beaucoupkevin.com/2007/02/marvel-comics-in-insulting-readers.html

An amazing celebration of everything vapid and shallow and lurid about pop culture, at the sacrifice of one of the great icons of something lasting and meaningful.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: nightwing on March 07, 2007, 12:21:14 PM
Indeed.  From what I've seen of it, Marvel already killed off Cap in every way that matters with "Civil War." Now they're just stopping his heartbeat, too.

Until he comes back, of course. 

Hard to believe this kind of thing still makes the news.  Or maybe not, given the state of modern media.



Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Kuuga on March 07, 2007, 03:17:03 PM
Typical cheap shocktactics under the tired and pretentious "post-9/11 world" banner.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: JulianPerez on March 07, 2007, 06:03:49 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up. You mean to say Captain America may not be 100% relevant?  ;) What a totally new and heretofore unknown problem and situation that I never before realized!

Seriously, all sarcasm aside...man, people have been saying Cap is old school since the FIFTIES. In fact, there's an argument that says the only time Cap was even vaguely relevant was the forties.

This is why Steve Englehart wrote the "Man Without a Country" run when he did: because Cap was embarassingly unhip even in 1970-whenever-it-was, and having Cap lose faith in America was something that made him sympathetic and relevant. It's amazing how well the Englehart CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON run has aged (unlike the Kirby Cap run that followed it, but that's another story), even despite the fact that the context that it happened in was Watergate and the Nixon presidency: because by making Captain America someone that payed attention to what was going on around him, he transcended his origin as a flag-waiving character into someone that is much more complicated and about American ideals vs. their real-world execution.

This was the Englehart Cap that fought the Squadron Supreme for being tools of the powerful, business/government interests that rule Squadron-Earth.

"You have your definition of a hero, and I've got mine...and mine involves being more aware!"

In other words, Englehart saved Cap from the fate that MIGHTY THOR eventually suffered: condemned to being a Marvel property that only the original creators in the original context ever really got, who keeps on being published, but whose soul disappeared sometime in the late seventies.

It's funny: Englehart made Superman a conservative and Captain America a liberal, and both characterizations worked out well.

The really frustrating thing about this news is that it reflects a really corrupt, overkill mentality: killing a character off because writers can't think of what to do with them at the moment. Considering the way the post-CIVIL WAR Marvel comics are looking, with EVERYBODY being pro-Registration and every state having a superteam, Steve Rogers, who would NEVER sign up, doesn't "fit in." So, what to do?

I've seen enough deaths, yes, even shock-value deaths (shock value can be effective...if it is shocking enough) that have been done well, that I can see the value of it as a technique. The great thing about the Legion of Super-Heroes is you can kill them left and right.

But because cynicism is what it is, people aren't killed off anymore in order to spike sales. People are killed off to create excitement for when they eventually will RETURN.

Marvel's gotten more thrills out of comics fans by teasing us with Thor's possible return than they ever have with Thor alive and well. I can see the same done with Steve: just throw a star-shield on the cover of an issue of IRON MAN and just watch the sales spike.

To an extent, I don't entirely mind this. You'd better believe now Hal Jordan's back, people aren't going to take him for granted for a WHILE.

And speaking of Cap's return...when will that be, and how?

Five gets you ten its going to somehow involve Arnim Zola. (Yes, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.)

Don't forget Red Skull having a Captain America clone body since the Gruenwald years! You'd better believe that'll come into play. And then there's Vance Astrovik having Cap's shield in the GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY years...those that say Cap's return is just a matter of time may be more right than they know.  ;)


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Super Monkey on March 07, 2007, 06:24:09 PM
It seems that Marvel is still stuck in the Iron Age.

I stopped caring about them a long, long, LONG time ago. So oh well...


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Kuuga on March 07, 2007, 11:19:18 PM
It seems that Marvel is still stuck in the Iron Age.

I stopped caring about them a long, long, LONG time ago. So oh well...

I still don't believe DC is out of it yet. They've just cranked it up another notch.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: crispy snax on March 08, 2007, 03:27:15 AM
yup, dc is in the iron age, its just waving its hands about dishing out tastes of bronze age ideals in hope that we wont realise that its still the same shock tactic using, gore glorifying, continuity scrutinising iron age...

still, we get more pre crisis reprints! so its not all bad

and yeah, id have to say the idea of captain america didnt really work past WWII


(not ALL modern comics are bad... try ABC! or anything by johnen vasquez (cant spell his name, popular with goths))


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Lee Semmens on March 08, 2007, 06:09:41 AM
The major newspaper in my city ran a story (rather surprisingly) about Captain America's death, and cited Quesada as saying he wouldn't rule out Cap's return, but rather spoiled it by ending with the following statement by the reporter: "After all, Marvel killed Superman in 1993, and resurrected him in '94"!?!


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Permanus on March 08, 2007, 07:25:51 AM
The major newspaper in my city ran a story (rather surprisingly) about Captain America's death, and cited Quesada as saying he wouldn't rule out Cap's return, but rather spoiled it by ending with the following statement by the reporter: "After all, Marvel killed Superman in 1993, and resurrected him in '94"!?!

I'm rather put in mind of the TV chat show host who claimed to be a good friend of Bob Kane's in the late 80s, early 90s, only to add: "He still doing Batman?"

As for this Captain America business, it's almost as if the cynicism with which these campaigns is waged is finally eating away at the instigators. It's as if a snake-oil salesman were riding into town, wearily aware of the fact that he's done this once too often, and looking forward to his lynching at the hands of the townspeople.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Kuuga on March 08, 2007, 02:41:41 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up. You mean to say Captain America may not be 100% relevant?  ;) What a totally new and heretofore unknown problem and situation that I never before realized!

Seriously, all sarcasm aside...man, people have been saying Cap is old school since the FIFTIES. In fact, there's an argument that says the only time Cap was even vaguely relevant was the forties.

This is why Steve Englehart wrote the "Man Without a Country" run when he did: because Cap was embarassingly unhip even in 1970-whenever-it-was, and having Cap lose faith in America was something that made him sympathetic and relevant. It's amazing how well the Englehart CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON run has aged (unlike the Kirby Cap run that followed it, but that's another story), even despite the fact that the context that it happened in was Watergate and the Nixon presidency: because by making Captain America someone that payed attention to what was going on around him, he transcended his origin as a flag-waiving character into someone that is much more complicated and about American ideals vs. their real-world execution.

This was the Englehart Cap that fought the Squadron Supreme for being tools of the powerful, business/government interests that rule Squadron-Earth.

"You have your definition of a hero, and I've got mine...and mine involves being more aware!"

In other words, Englehart saved Cap from the fate that MIGHTY THOR eventually suffered: condemned to being a Marvel property that only the original creators in the original context ever really got, who keeps on being published, but whose soul disappeared sometime in the late seventies.

It's funny: Englehart made Superman a conservative and Captain America a liberal, and both characterizations worked out well.

The really frustrating thing about this news is that it reflects a really corrupt, overkill mentality: killing a character off because writers can't think of what to do with them at the moment. Considering the way the post-CIVIL WAR Marvel comics are looking, with EVERYBODY being pro-Registration and every state having a superteam, Steve Rogers, who would NEVER sign up, doesn't "fit in." So, what to do?

I've seen enough deaths, yes, even shock-value deaths (shock value can be effective...if it is shocking enough) that have been done well, that I can see the value of it as a technique. The great thing about the Legion of Super-Heroes is you can kill them left and right.

But because cynicism is what it is, people aren't killed off anymore in order to spike sales. People are killed off to create excitement for when they eventually will RETURN.

Marvel's gotten more thrills out of comics fans by teasing us with Thor's possible return than they ever have with Thor alive and well. I can see the same done with Steve: just throw a star-shield on the cover of an issue of IRON MAN and just watch the sales spike.

To an extent, I don't entirely mind this. You'd better believe now Hal Jordan's back, people aren't going to take him for granted for a WHILE.

And speaking of Cap's return...when will that be, and how?

Five gets you ten its going to somehow involve Arnim Zola. (Yes, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.)

Don't forget Red Skull having a Captain America clone body since the Gruenwald years! You'd better believe that'll come into play. And then there's Vance Astrovik having Cap's shield in the GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY years...those that say Cap's return is just a matter of time may be more right than they know.  ;)

I can agree about the working better in WWII but with one thing in mind, he works better there as a *solo* character (or with Bucky). In modern times he's usually better off with the Avengers unless he's working for SHEILD.

As long there IS an United States of America, Cap will be "relevant". Wether he's considered kewl or hardcore with the bloodthirsty Iron Age comics crowd or people who want superhero stories to be pretentious tomes about todays headlines, well that's another matter.

Killing Cap. FOR WHAT? A sales spike? Some Kennedy Assasination/9-11 posturing to seem edgy?

As a superhero and adventure character there is nothing broken about him and this latest move is yet another in a long line of disgraces to Jack Kirby's creations.

But nothing about this really shocks me at all. If Joe wants to shock me, try telling straight up fullblast superhero action/adventure stories with the character instead of corrupting his dead sidekicks soul and drowning him "shades of grey".


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: nightwing on March 08, 2007, 03:02:15 PM
I agree with Kuuga.  The only way Quesada could shock me would be to put out a Marvel book I'm interested in buying.  As it is...

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz.......

(http://eddddie.googlepages.com/homer_sleep.jpg)


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Great Rao on March 08, 2007, 03:15:00 PM
As far as Cap's return, it's already alluded to in the CNN article where Joe Quesada says, "What happens with the costume?"  It sounds to me like they've already opened the door for someone else to continue on as Captain America in memory of Steve.  I haven't followed the Marvel Universe for a couple of decades, but Bucky seems like the obvious choice.

It sounds to me like this works.  Captain America has always been about the United States: How we see ourselves, our strengths and weaknesses as a country.  The history of Captain America is the history of the United States.  And right now, this is where we're at.  Polarized while in the midst of dramatic change.  Many people are concerned that the government may be moving in fascist directions and that it's using using double-speak terms like "patriot act" to try to justify and disguise it.  Then there are people who refuse to understand that POV and support everything done in the name of the United States, whatever those acts may be.

Rogers' refusal to comply with registration is a patriotic move - and given the passage of the U.S. "REAL ID Act", is completely relevent to current events.  For those who don't know, the "REAL ID Act" takes effect May 2008 and requires that all U.S. Citizens must have and show a federal ID card in order to open a bank account, get a job, or travel.  Some state legislatures, such as Maine, have refused to comply.

The assasination of Steve is also a reflection of the way our world currently is and accurately shows the state of this country - of its traditional values and truths.  Where anger, fear, and violence are waging a war against truth, justice, and tolerance.  I don't blame Marvel for this - they're only the messenger.  I blame the state of the world.

I only hope that Rogers' replacement can set things right.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on March 08, 2007, 03:26:33 PM
CA's been killed before.  Steranko--uh -- Hydra -- did it back in the 60s.  Funeral and everything. Kirby album ish inbetween and then back from the dead!

Im with 'wing.............................YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWN


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Sword of Superman on March 08, 2007, 04:06:03 PM
With Thor dead,Marvel just killed another one of my favorite hero,i don't want to talk about this decision,i know that comic book character have regulary died before,but it seems that this old trick still work for the sales,just take a look on Ebay,a quick search for Captain America#25 and everyone can see what i mean. 


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Great Rao on March 08, 2007, 04:11:58 PM
Anyone here actually read the story?


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: VanZee on March 08, 2007, 04:49:02 PM
Captain America is one of a very short list of ordinary humans who put on the superhero tights and leapt out to stop injustice.  Used to be more of them, particularly in the Golden Age.  Swap "Cap killed by sniper" with "Batman killed by sniper" and see how that feels in the mouth.  It feels wrong.  It's about one notch up from "Robin slips in shower, paralyzed."

Sadly, many of these writers do not understand the very characters within their control.  Cap is a much more interesting character with which to deconstruct what's right with the American myth than to be matryred for what's wrong with it.  To what extent is the ability to "awe and inspire" the most enduring trait of the superhero?  Without that, the genre is all just violence and dues ex machina.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Sword of Superman on March 08, 2007, 04:57:00 PM
Anyone here actually read the story?
Brubaker run on Captain America is really fantastic,my doubts are about the real motivation for this fictional murder,personally i have not yet read the story because with the italian adaptation we are a little"behind"(around issue#17)but since you arise this question i have notice too that sometimes i see post about a story that the author of the post itself have not read..   


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Michel Weisnor on March 08, 2007, 06:44:00 PM
Anyone here actually read the story?

As a matter of fact, I just finished reading Captain America #25. Not a bad comic, there is lots of intrigue with a surprise ending. Overall, outside of all publicity and marketing gimmicks aside, #25 appears to fit into the overall Brubaker/Epting Cap run.




Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Super Monkey on March 08, 2007, 07:19:01 PM
Didn't Bucky die too a while back?

The Bucky running around now is a different person or a zombie?

It has been a long time since I read a Marvel comic.


Marvel has always revamped their characters every few years, so it is not as shocking as the media is trying to make it seem. Marvel has never been about tradition, their characters are forever changing. So this is all rather normal.

Like others have said, Cap has died before, so I am sure he will return and die again and return and die again...




Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Great Rao on March 08, 2007, 09:54:01 PM
Not a bad comic, there is lots of intrigue with a surprise ending

Yeah, I read the solicitation:  "Cap faces a life-changing decision"  :D

I'm impressed that Cap's death was still a surprise on the day the comic came out.

Didn't Bucky die too a while back?

The Bucky running around now is a different person or a zombie?

Apparently Bucky Barnes died in World War II.  He was dead until 2005, when Ed Brubaker brought him back in a Captain America storyline.  Not a dream, not a hoax, the Bucky running around now is the real deal.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Super Monkey on March 08, 2007, 11:19:38 PM
Then who the heck is Nomad? I thought he was Marvel's rip off of Nightwing, aka a grown up sidekick.

Also, whatever happen to U.S. Agent, the one in the black costume, is he still around or is he dead too?




Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Great Rao on March 08, 2007, 11:24:27 PM
Then who the heck is Nomad?

That was Jack Monroe, a different Bucky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucky

And be sure to check out "the Bucky Clause" near the end of the article.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: JulianPerez on March 09, 2007, 04:16:30 AM
Quote from: Great Rao
It sounds to me like this works.  Captain America has always been about the United States: How we see ourselves, our strengths and weaknesses as a country.  The history of Captain America is the history of the United States.  And right now, this is where we're at.  Polarized while in the midst of dramatic change.  Many people are concerned that the government may be moving in fascist directions and that it's using using double-speak terms like "patriot act" to try to justify and disguise it.  Then there are people who refuse to understand that POV and support everything done in the name of the United States, whatever those acts may be.

Rogers' refusal to comply with registration is a patriotic move - and given the passage of the U.S. "REAL ID Act", is completely relevent to current events.  For those who don't know, the "REAL ID Act" takes effect May 2008 and requires that all U.S. Citizens must have and show a federal ID card in order to open a bank account, get a job, or travel.  Some state legislatures, such as Maine, have refused to comply.

The assasination of Steve is also a reflection of the way our world currently is and accurately shows the state of this country - of its traditional values and truths.  Where anger, fear, and violence are waging a war against truth, justice, and tolerance.  I don't blame Marvel for this - they're only the messenger.  I blame the state of the world.

Hey, remember a while back when I argued that the recent creative decisions Marvel has been taking, are due to other writers following Kurt Busiek's lead on ASTRO CITY?

I told you so.

Look what's going on here and compare this to the Silver Agent's martyrdom. Silver Agent, a Captain America-like incorruptible white male leader-type, was executed by a suspicious population falsely during a turbulent, uncertain period, becoming a symbol of shame and mourning. Meanwhile, in the REAL Marvel Universe, you've got the REAL Cap becoming a martyr.

Quote from: Great Rao
As far as Cap's return, it's already alluded to in the CNN article where Joe Quesada says, "What happens with the costume?"  It sounds to me like they've already opened the door for someone else to continue on as Captain America in memory of Steve.  I haven't followed the Marvel Universe for a couple of decades, but Bucky seems like the obvious choice.

I really hope they don't go the "legacy character" route with Captain America, because while the Legacy route can work for some characters (Flash, for instance) it fails with others (Captain America comes to mind, as does Thor, whose most important attribute is that he's the real deal).

Here's why: one of the things I think is most interesting about Captain America is that it ISN'T about the costume, it's about the person inside of it. As much love as I have for Hal Jordan, you could write a comic called GREEN LANTERN and have it star one of the other guys (Stewart, Guy, or one of the aliens, as Englehart did in the 1980s) and people would be okay with that. The Flash has been a so-called "legacy" character for some time as well: if someone's as interesting as their predecessor, I can accept them as the Flash (as I ultimately did with Wally West).

But Captain America isn't about a costume...arguably, Cap's most interesting stories were the ones where Cap, as Nomad, gave the costume up. Likewise, every time someone else has shown up to wear the costume (the psychotic, anticommunist Captain America from the 1950s, the meathead that later became US Agent, Rick Jones, etc.) they are inevitably shown to be unworthy or unsuitable.

Quote from: Great Rao
Apparently Bucky Barnes died in World War II.  He was dead until 2005, when Ed Brubaker brought him back in a Captain America storyline.  Not a dream, not a hoax, the Bucky running around now is the real deal.

Incidentally, Ed Brubaker's CAPTAIN AMERICA, is along with Dan Slott's SHE-HULK, the only Marvel Comic I've been regularly picking up (and She-Hulk is really getting good now they've more-or-less ditched the annoying "law with jetpacks" concept of the first year and replaced it with stories using Marvel's cosmic background: the High Evolutionary, the Eternals, the Watchers starting to interfere in prelude to the Reckoning War, etc.). CAPTAIN AMERICA and SHE-HULK are currently among the few comics published that feel like they're still set in the Marvel Universe.

It's funny: when a friend told me that Bucky was coming back, I was naturally nauseated. "Well, at least Uncle Ben's still dead, right?"

But when I read the Brubaker story, I was impressed. My reaction was the same as the people that were horrified by Spock coming to life, who recanted on seeing SEARCH FOR SPOCK:  "I didn't know you were going to do it THAT way."

Quote from: SuperMonkey
Then who the heck is Nomad? I thought he was Marvel's rip off of Nightwing, aka a grown up sidekick.

Nope. "Nomad, the Man Without a Country" was the identity that Captain America assumed in the Englehart CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON run. Steve had lost faith in America and ditched the star-spangled duds. Many writers - Kurt Busiek included - have pointed to these stories as being essential and central to the character.

Besides Bucky, Steve Rogers had Rick Jones as a sidekick as well.

Interestingly, the other Captain Americas had sidekicks too, and their final fate is sketchy: Cap had a SECOND "lost" sidekick, Golden Girl, in the 1940s. Roy Thomas retconned that all the Golden Age Cap stories from 1945-1949, when Cap was supposed to have been buried in an iceberg, actually happened to another flag-waiving hero, the Spirit of '76, who assumed Cap's identity.

Golden Girl, along with the original Citizen V and the Golden Age version of Vision, is one of those characters that just slipped through the cracks post-Golden Age.

You might be referring to the second Bucky, Jack Monroe, who was the sidekick of the slightly psychotic, anticommunist 1950s Captain America, who later on assumed the name of Nomad when he discovered his Captain dead and the ORIGINAL Captain America very much alive!

(There was another Captain America in the 1950s, which explains Cap's brief revival in that era as a "Commie-Smasher" for three issues in 1953. Obviously this was retconned to being a different guy.)

Quote from: SuperMonkey
Also, whatever happen to U.S. Agent, the one in the black costume, is he still around or is he dead too?

Ahhhh, John Walker. Actually, that's a good question: the last I saw of him was when he played the heavy in Kurt Busiek's great underrated crossover, MAXIMUM SECURITY a couple years ago. I'd argue that USAgent with his hardassed, love-it-or-leave it nationalism, actually would make a much better villain than hero.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: nightwing on March 09, 2007, 08:10:36 AM
I don't think it would work to put someone else in the costume and call him "Captain America."

If there is a "problem" with the character at all in the modern world, it is in fact the costume, not the guy in it.  Steve Rogers has been fairly consistently portrayed throughout his history as a decent man with a good grasp of what America should be about, despite the shifting winds of popular sentiment or which party happens to hold power at any given time.  But it's those darn star-spangled longjohns that have at times made him a difficult character to promote, to write or to read about.  There's an implied jingoism in that outfit, or at the very least an implied *pride* in something, that can be difficult to reconcile in eras where America's beliefs are shaken.  In order to understand Steve, you first have to read the books, and to read the books you first have to get past those stars and stripes being shoved at you. 

Whoever puts on the outfit is going to inherit that same liability, only without the upside.  Because whoever it is almost certainly is NOT going to share Steve Roger's virtually unique understanding of American principles and ideals, his faith in the country's potential despite its slips, or his long history of service to its cause.

If you put a fervent patriot in the outfit, you're back to square one; promoting a jingoistic character in a time of low national confidence.  If you put a rebellious, anti-establishment type in the outfit, then it just makes no sense...why would he wear the symbol of a system he deplores, except maybe to mock it, which would disgrace the character.

I think the only way it would "work" would be to give someone else the name, but not the outfit.  The new outfit should reflect modern sentiment, maybe something black along the lines of USAgent.  The shield is irreplaceable, so it would have to stay on, but the rest should change.

Of course this has already been done, ad nauseum, but then Marvel is the House of Recycled Ideas.

VanZee writes:

Quote
Captain America is one of a very short list of ordinary humans who put on the superhero tights and leapt out to stop injustice.  Used to be more of them, particularly in the Golden Age.  Swap "Cap killed by sniper" with "Batman killed by sniper" and see how that feels in the mouth.  It feels wrong.  It's about one notch up from "Robin slips in shower, paralyzed."

Yes, or maybe "Batman paralyzed by third-rate nobody character brought in from left field a few months before." 

Or "Superman killed by mindless Image-reject monster invented for that sole purpose."

The fact that Cap's "death" is so pointless, so unfitting and committed by a relative nobody is the biggest guarantee it won't be permanent.

Well, that and the movie deal.





Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Michel Weisnor on March 09, 2007, 09:04:26 AM
Whoever puts on the outfit is going to inherit that same liability, only without the upside.  Because whoever it is almost certainly is NOT going to share Steve Roger's virtually unique understanding of American principles and ideals, his faith in the country's potential despite its slips, or his long history of service to its cause.

If you put a fervent patriot in the outfit, you're back to square one; promoting a jingoistic character in a time of low national confidence.  If you put a rebellious, anti-establishment type in the outfit, then it just makes no sense...why would he wear the symbol of a system he deplores, except maybe to mock it, which would disgrace the character.

I think the only way it would "work" would be to give someone else the name, but not the outfit.  The new outfit should reflect modern sentiment, maybe something black along the lines of USAgent.  The shield is irreplaceable, so it would have to stay on, but the rest should change.


You mean like this guy?

http://www.marvel.com/catalog/?book_id=6562


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Mighty Man on March 09, 2007, 09:46:15 AM
You think about it.
If Steve Rogers were a real person. He would have the moral values of my Grandfather (and of course not be as old).
He would be patriotic brassy, sorta racist, old school and stuck in his ways.
Maybe this is their attempt to put a new "modern" guy in the Captain America suit with modern values and ideas.
Not sure how they are going to get away with it but they will probably at least try for a year until they will most likely bring Steve Rogers back after it flops. Marvel really need to do something because the girl across the street selling lemonade probably profits more then them on a monthly basis.   ;D


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Kuuga on March 09, 2007, 10:36:52 AM
You think about it.
If Steve Rogers were a real person. He would have the moral values of my Grandfather (and of course not be as old).
He would be patriotic brassy, sorta racist, old school and stuck in his ways.
Maybe this is their attempt to put a new "modern" guy in the Captain America suit with modern values and ideas.
Not sure how they are going to get away with it but they will probably at least try for a year until they will most likely bring Steve Rogers back after it flops. Marvel really need to do something because the girl across the street selling lemonade probably profits more then them on a monthly basis.   ;D

It is ridiculously inaccurate to assume that all people from your Grandfathers era are racist. Nor would Steve Rogers himself be racist.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: nightwing on March 09, 2007, 11:50:51 AM
Michel Weisnor writes:

Quote
You mean like this guy?

Haha!  More or less.  No seriously, how could anyone pick Frank Castle to be Captain America?  I'm assuming whoever does the choosing would be a government rep and they wouldn't pick a fugitive murderer for the job.  An assasin, maybe, but not such a loose cannon.

But yes, maybe someone LIKE Castle, to a degree.  I think it's possible Marvel could pick a guy who eventually turns out to be too bloodthirsty and/or unstable for the job, just to prove to readers how special Steve is...the same schtick they did with Bruce Wayne and Jean-Paul Valley in "Knightfall." 

But again, we've seen that Cap story before, more than once.  Frankly it's hard to imagine how Marvel could possibly put a new spin on the hoary "replacement Cap" cliche.  There have already been more Caps than Ultrons, haven't there?

Kuuga writes:

Quote
It is ridiculously inaccurate to assume that all people from your Grandfathers era are racist. Nor would Steve Rogers himself be racist.

Indeed.  And yet this does bring up an interesting point.  People do tend to be a product of their times, for good and ill.  Except Steve Rogers.

Steve is by birth and by virtue of his WWII career a member of "The Greatest Generation."  He was also "reborn" in the 60s and as Julian says has a fairly liberal POV.  But one seeming constant in every generation is the onset of a certain inflexibility in later years, a resistance to newness and change.  The Big Band generation are convinced things were better in "their day," as are the beatniks and the Hippies, for that matter. There's no doubt people in their late 20s who think any music after Nirvana is trash.  And heck, you already know what a curmudgeon *I* am, and I'm just 41.

So how is it Steve Rogers manages to live through so many eras without developing that same closed-mindedness?  How is it he never gets to the point of "iPods are too much trouble to learn, I'm sticking with my CDs"?  And so on.  Steve's ability to adapt to cultural change is almost a superpower in itself, don't you think?


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: VanZee on March 09, 2007, 12:20:09 PM
the replacements...


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Kuuga on March 09, 2007, 02:43:40 PM
Michel Weisnor writes:

Quote
You mean like this guy?

Haha!  More or less.  No seriously, how could anyone pick Frank Castle to be Captain America?  I'm assuming whoever does the choosing would be a government rep and they wouldn't pick a fugitive murderer for the job.  An assasin, maybe, but not such a loose cannon.

But yes, maybe someone LIKE Castle, to a degree.  I think it's possible Marvel could pick a guy who eventually turns out to be too bloodthirsty and/or unstable for the job, just to prove to readers how special Steve is...the same schtick they did with Bruce Wayne and Jean-Paul Valley in "Knightfall." 

But again, we've seen that Cap story before, more than once.  Frankly it's hard to imagine how Marvel could possibly put a new spin on the hoary "replacement Cap" cliche.  There have already been more Caps than Ultrons, haven't there?

Kuuga writes:

Quote
It is ridiculously inaccurate to assume that all people from your Grandfathers era are racist. Nor would Steve Rogers himself be racist.

Indeed.  And yet this does bring up an interesting point.  People do tend to be a product of their times, for good and ill.  Except Steve Rogers.

Steve is by birth and by virtue of his WWII career a member of "The Greatest Generation."  He was also "reborn" in the 60s and as Julian says has a fairly liberal POV.  But one seeming constant in every generation is the onset of a certain inflexibility in later years, a resistance to newness and change.  The Big Band generation are convinced things were better in "their day," as are the beatniks and the Hippies, for that matter. There's no doubt people in their late 20s who think any music after Nirvana is trash.  And heck, you already know what a curmudgeon *I* am, and I'm just 41.

So how is it Steve Rogers manages to live through so many eras without developing that same closed-mindedness?  How is it he never gets to the point of "iPods are too much trouble to learn, I'm sticking with my CDs"?  And so on.  Steve's ability to adapt to cultural change is almost a superpower in itself, don't you think?

I basically chalk that up to after having adapted to modern life when he was found by the Avengers he basically learned the virtue of it and having gone through such an experience keeps an open mind about things. When you've spent time as a man out of time after awhile adapting as you go probably doesn't seem so bad. Besides, he's Captain America, He has more important things to worry about than ipods and the winds of trends. I would think he wouldn't sit around being bitter about the good old days because he's still having just as much adventure as he did back then. ..and he hasn't aged physically either.

I would think that might make his perspective somewhat more unique than that of the average person from that time. I think this also starts leaning towards the whole "realism" thing which is not superheros first best destiny anyway. These characters are supposed to be fun for crissakes and Cap represents the dream of America not the latest CNN news headline. Of course his death is a great cheap way to MAKE him a CNN headline so of course Joey Q is all about it. Why put the effort into telling fun action adventure superhero stories that repsect the character when you can milk the controversy cow for that shortterm sales spike and get on tv? 



Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: TELLE on March 10, 2007, 08:03:48 AM
Some thoughts:

-it is only the great respect and sense of fraternity that I have for the members of this board that has led me to read or write anything about this Captain America frenzy

-Interesting how the character has had a more storied career than Superman in many ways --his low sales post Kirby an excuse for some inventively ambitious but ultimately unsatisfying work by Englehart and Steranko that, if it didn't usually work, at least questioned the idea of a patriotic superhero (as Nightwing notes, the costume is a huge stumbling block to the casual reader --not that most superhero costumes aren't!).  Did Englehart pen the "Cap as Acrobat" era?

-As usual, though, Kirby (and Joe Simon) questioned the concept  first with the parody, Fightin' American.

-Maybe Marvel will have a bunch of people take up the mantle: an electric blue Cap, a clone Cap, a black Cap, etc.

-ironically, Ed Brubaker is a very good writer, although I haven't read  his Cap

-I agree that, outside of Kirby, Cap has been best as an Avenger and, in the the last 20 years, I have enjoyed aspects of Busiek's (Avengers Forever, Perez run) and Bendis' work (I have read 1/2 of a new Avengers and part of my nephew's copy of the Disassembled trade)

-more power to Marvel for being able to pull off a stunt like this on a gullible American public (I suspect it will backfire on them, however, artificially inflating sales, and disillusioning a whole new generation of young fans, etc etc)



Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: nightwing on March 10, 2007, 01:53:00 PM
Quote
-more power to Marvel for being able to pull off a stunt like this on a gullible American public (I suspect it will backfire on them, however, artificially inflating sales, and disillusioning a whole new generation of young fans, etc etc)

Or worse, convincing the public that the book is no longer in print.

I've said it before, but to this day I encounter people are surprised to find that Superman comics are still being published.  "I thought he was dead!?" they say.

It'll go the same way with Cap; lazy jounalists will always bite at the "death of an icon" story, but the "triumphant return" will be ignored.  Maybe because the latter is so much more easily recognized for what it is; an attempt at hijacking headlines with a product placement.  After all, even what passes for journalists these days would draw the line at reporting, "Today McDonald's announced a new burger guaranteed to be the tastiest yet!"  Well, so far anyway.

In fact, I think this accounts for the disconnect with those people I meet.  There are still people out there who believe "the news" is something more than just regurgitated hype placed in an anchorman's mouth by a corporation, protest group or PAC with an agenda to push.  They hear stuff coming out of those talking heads and assume there is some gravitas to it, some legitimacy.  Hey if it's on the news it must be serious and true, right? DC and Marvel know they're just selling a product via a (desperate) gimmick, the newsman knows he's aiding and abetting a scam but what the heck it helps him fill airtime.  The listener, though, may very well take the whole thing seriously and literally, taking the "death of Superman" as an announcement that the books will cease publication.

This whole thing is analogous to those Christmas Eve newscasts where the reporters track the progress of Santa Clause on his journey from the North Pole.  It's a cutesy, smarmy little game and frankly any reporter who plays along deserves no respect as a journalist.  These chuckleheads have checked their integrity at the door to aid and abet DC and Marvel in selling their funny books.  The line between journalism and entertainment is no longer just blurry, it's been erased.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: DoctorZero on March 10, 2007, 07:25:02 PM
No, I do not believe Steve Rogers is gone forever.  I think he will be gone for about a year, and return just when Marvel is ready to trash can the "registration act" and Stark's Super-Hero Utopia.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: TELLE on March 11, 2007, 07:36:16 AM
There are still people out there who believe "the news" is something more than just regurgitated hype placed in an anchorman's mouth by a corporation, protest group or PAC with an agenda to push.  They hear stuff coming out of those talking heads and assume there is some gravitas to it, some legitimacy.  Hey if it's on the news it must be serious and true, right?

Twas ever thus.  Certainly I sometimes feel that is becoming harder to tell what real "news" is.  Are major league sporting events or the love lives of movie stars news?  Are stock market reports?  But then I remember that newspapers and even television journalism have always been a highly biased, center-right source of politicized information, gossip and infotainment.  Newspapers have been doing it for hundreds of years.  Maybe I.F. Stone was the last really "pure" US journalist.





Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: JulianPerez on March 11, 2007, 04:13:59 PM
There was another Bucky introduced in the Gruenwald years, an adult black man that was going to be John Walker's (later USAgent's) sidekick when the government placed him in the chainmail tights and asked the real Cap to discontinue his activities, in another one of those attempts to ape Englehart's achievements.

The thing is, he changed his name to "Battlestar" soon after when a letter came in that said that "Buck" is a racist term for a black man. Brother, you could TASTE the panic in Gruenwald's letters pages. And anyway, it's a little embarassing to have a grown man called by the name of a dead white kid.

Quote from: nightwing
I don't think it would work to put someone else in the costume and call him "Captain America."

If there is a "problem" with the character at all in the modern world, it is in fact the costume, not the guy in it.  Steve Rogers has been fairly consistently portrayed throughout his history as a decent man with a good grasp of what America should be about, despite the shifting winds of popular sentiment or which party happens to hold power at any given time.  But it's those darn star-spangled longjohns that have at times made him a difficult character to promote, to write or to read about.  There's an implied jingoism in that outfit, or at the very least an implied *pride* in something, that can be difficult to reconcile in eras where America's beliefs are shaken.  In order to understand Steve, you first have to read the books, and to read the books you first have to get past those stars and stripes being shoved at you. 

Whoever puts on the outfit is going to inherit that same liability, only without the upside.  Because whoever it is almost certainly is NOT going to share Steve Roger's virtually unique understanding of American principles and ideals, his faith in the country's potential despite its slips, or his long history of service to its cause.

If you put a fervent patriot in the outfit, you're back to square one; promoting a jingoistic character in a time of low national confidence.  If you put a rebellious, anti-establishment type in the outfit, then it just makes no sense...why would he wear the symbol of a system he deplores, except maybe to mock it, which would disgrace the character.

I think the only way it would "work" would be to give someone else the name, but not the outfit.  The new outfit should reflect modern sentiment, maybe something black along the lines of USAgent.  The shield is irreplaceable, so it would have to stay on, but the rest should change.

Agreed. Ironically, Captain America may actually be worse off in times of high national spirits, because then, the very unique personality traits and view on America that Steve Rogers possesses are shoved in the background. I don't entirely dislike the Kirby run (it has its moments, it's just VERY different from the Englehart run that preceded it) but Englehart was defined by the spirit of Watergate, and Kirby by the spirit of the Bicentennial. Captain America's personality disappeared and he became just another superguy, surrounded by all the tacky flag-waiving.

And hearing the Falcon cheesily introduce himself with "I, a trickster, a questioner of the ways" was nauseating.

Quote from: nightwing
Indeed.  And yet this does bring up an interesting point.  People do tend to be a product of their times, for good and ill.  Except Steve Rogers.

Hmmm? Captain America's biggest personality trait is that he is an anachronism. He hates appeasement, and he always drops references to how because of the Nazis he despises the idea of might-makes-right, and is very firm and uncompromising when it comes to appeasement to people that take things by force. Captain America doesn't really have a private life, and is a very dysfunctional and lonely person when not in costume.

If Steve makes a pop culture reference, it's to Greta Garbo or Errol Flynn.

Incidentally, I was just reading a recent biography of Neville Chamberlain, which argued that he's unfairly maligned by history as an appeaser. As usual, history is far more complicated: In any conflict with the Nazis, Britain would have been whipped, and so Chamberlain appeased in order to allow Britain to re-militarize. If he really meant "peace in our time," he wouldn't have been re-arming Britain. Chamberlain's appeasement was less a cowardly, shortsighted act than a miscalculated gamble: he betted that the Nazis would be brought into conflict with Soviet Russia. If there was ever a moment Chamberlain was finished, it was when the Nazis and Russia signed the non-aggression pact.

Quote from: nightwing
So how is it Steve Rogers manages to live through so many eras without developing that same closed-mindedness?  How is it he never gets to the point of "iPods are too much trouble to learn, I'm sticking with my CDs"?  And so on.  Steve's ability to adapt to cultural change is almost a superpower in itself, don't you think?

Well, again, Captain America's biggest trait is he has trouble adjusting. His subplot in the Busiek-era AVENGERS was that he had no idea how to deal with something like the Triune Understanding, which uses mass media and the press.

If there is anything that keeps Cap modern, I would have to say it is his friendship with Hawkeye. People talk about the Steve/Clint friendship like it was one-way, with Hawkeye as Captain America's pupil or something, when it really is two-way mutual respect.

Hawkeye, and later allies and friends like the Falcon and Rick Jones, have contrary personalities. That's probably what it is; my Grandpa once told me that nothing gets you old like hanging out with old people.

Quote from: TELLE
-I agree that, outside of Kirby, Cap has been best as an Avenger and, in the the last 20 years, I have enjoyed aspects of Busiek's (Avengers Forever, Perez run) and Bendis' work (I have read 1/2 of a new Avengers and part of my nephew's copy of the Disassembled trade)

I don't agree with the whole "Cap is best as an Avenger" perspective.

The best Captain America stories I can think of are ones where Captain America is solo or with Rick Jones or the Falcon; the reason is because the Marvel Universe has such an incredible world that really, only Captain America can play around in. Villains like AIM, MODOK, and the Cosmic Cube; Captain America is the only hero in the MU that makes sense battling a super-spy organization like HYDRA, Baron Strucker, and the sexy Madame Hydra.

Steve is a little like Batman in this regard: sure, he can be a part of the group, but he's at his best when fighting his own enemies in his own "world."

Even when Cap shows up in other comics, the moments where he really shines are solo moments: for instance, Captain America and Doctor Doom vs. the Red Skull in the Bill Mantlo issues of SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP, or the "secret" flashback vs. HYDRA where he learned the Supreme Hydra was really the Space Phantom during the Englehart AVENGERS.

Speaking of Busiek's AVENGERS run...if I have any critique of it, it is that Captain America's personality dominates the group. At some level, Busiek must have known this, because come AVENGERS FOREVER, he uses the Englehart-era Captain America, who is shaken, and whose personality is less dominating. And even a couple years into Busiek's run, he has Cap leave and Wasp become leader.

I'm not saying ol' Winghead isn't great as a part of the Avengers. When Busiek said his Avengers roster would have Cap, Thor, and Iron Man, you wanted to read it because you KNEW this guy wasn't messing around.

But Cap's best moments as an Avenger have been those where he is written not as a Charlton Heston "man who is more than a man," but as another one of the characters. My favorite part of the early Roy Thomas run on AVENGERS was that, as Goliath was Avengers chairman, Cap was treated as another hero: the emphasis was on his friendship with Hawkeye and subplots like his rivalry with the Red Guardian.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Super Monkey on March 11, 2007, 04:55:11 PM

-Maybe Marvel will have a bunch of people take up the mantle: an electric blue Cap, a clone Cap, a black Cap, etc.

They already played all those cards!

Black Guy as Cap : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Bradley
Clone Cap: See Red Skull
Electric Blue Cap: http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=54158


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Super Monkey on March 11, 2007, 04:56:35 PM
Whoever puts on the outfit is going to inherit that same liability, only without the upside.  Because whoever it is almost certainly is NOT going to share Steve Roger's virtually unique understanding of American principles and ideals, his faith in the country's potential despite its slips, or his long history of service to its cause.

If you put a fervent patriot in the outfit, you're back to square one; promoting a jingoistic character in a time of low national confidence.  If you put a rebellious, anti-establishment type in the outfit, then it just makes no sense...why would he wear the symbol of a system he deplores, except maybe to mock it, which would disgrace the character.

I think the only way it would "work" would be to give someone else the name, but not the outfit.  The new outfit should reflect modern sentiment, maybe something black along the lines of USAgent.  The shield is irreplaceable, so it would have to stay on, but the rest should change.


You mean like this guy?

http://www.marvel.com/catalog/?book_id=6562


been there, done that as well: http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=53330&zoom=4


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: TELLE on March 12, 2007, 01:17:58 AM
Julian, I agree that the world of Cap as solo character can be great as well --my Avengers nostalgia sometimes clouds my critical faculties.  Certainly the bizarre Cold War and WWII villains (mainly Kirby inventions) that plague Cap are singularly sublime.  He is also a great component of the Marvel U's espionage/Nick Fury/James Bond-style world. 

In terms of art, I'm Kirby all the way --no other comic artist trumps his storytelling skill, design sense, or emotion in any Cap story I've ever seen or read.  Even the few Gene Colan Cap stories I've read seem rushed.

I'm willing to admit that part of this is nostalgia again --my first experience of Cap was through Avengers, Invaders and Kirby's 70s return to the character.  I didn't read Englehart until years after.  First impressions are hard to discount.  Maybe the best of all possible worlds would have been a Kirby story with plot points and dialog from Englehart?  But I'm sure Kirby would have said "huh?" to Englehart's 70s malaise.

Another great narrative involving Cap that I feel really gets at the essence of his character is Earth-X wherein Cap is basically the last hero in a world where everyone has superpowers.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: JulianPerez on March 12, 2007, 05:01:45 AM
Quote from: TELLE
Maybe the best of all possible worlds would have been a Kirby story with plot points and dialog from Englehart?  But I'm sure Kirby would have said "huh?" to Englehart's 70s malaise.

Ha! That would have been strange, yet interesting, like Frank Sinatra doing a rap album.

Actually, I can see Kirby doing the art for some of the Englehart-era stories. One of the defining moments when I realized Bradford Wright in COMIC BOOK NATION never actually READ any of the comics he was talking about, was when Wright tried to present "Man Without a Country" as a gritty/political spy story, when in reality it was a Kirby-esque tale featuring supervillains with ray guns whose surprise ending with "Tricky" Dick was all the more shocking because it was unexpected.

(Something I'd like to read - hopefully sometime before I die - would be a "definitive" work on comics history.)

Don't get me wrong, I liked a lot of Kirby's Cap run, and he gave the Marvel Universe the gift of Armin Zola, the Bio-Fanatic. A lot of the characters Kirby created in the early days were equally intriguing: the Red Skull sidekicks that included Baldini and his scarf, the wrestler guy, and the Murder Chair.

As for what Kirby would say to Englehart...well, that's hard to say. Kirby's political perspective is very weird at times. One of the things that strikes me about the Fourth World comics, NEW GODS in particular, is that it doesn't seem like something an American would make. The idea of two superpowers dueling over a country in between is something you'd imagine coming out of a smaller, non-aligned country.

Quote from: TELLE
Julian, I agree that the world of Cap as solo character can be great as well --my Avengers nostalgia sometimes clouds my critical faculties.  Certainly the bizarre Cold War and WWII villains (mainly Kirby inventions) that plague Cap are singularly sublime.  He is also a great component of the Marvel U's espionage/Nick Fury/James Bond-style world.  

Nostalgia is probably right on the money with this one. Cap makes a pretty impressive Avenger, and he's important to the group. But I'd say too that Captain America works on his own as well.

People slam Steve Rogers's Rogues Gallery and Supporting Cast, and this I just don't understand. He's got villains like the Serpent Society, AIM, HYDRA, and Nazis from the  Red Skull to the Hate-Monger. His supporting cast has snowballed over the years, with every writer bringing in someone new; sure, there are the usual guest-stars like Hawkeye and Iron Man, to people like that SHIELD agent that was the daughter of his 1940s girlfriend, that South American girl Kirby brought in, not to mention Rick Jones, the Falcon, and all the people that Mark Gruenwald sucked into the gravity of Captain America: Left-Winger and Right-Winger, USAgent, and D-Man.

Captain America is interesting because he is a heroic, as opposed to superheroic-level character with laser-vision, yet at the same time, unlike Batman who is very much 1930s pulp (fighting oriental masterminds and snake-filled pits), Captain America fits right in with very "comic book" events, like his encounter with N'Kantu the Living Mummy in the Gruenwald years. Unlike Batman or Daredevil, you can have Captain America fight spies with jet packs and then take on someone like Stilt-Man.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: dto on March 12, 2007, 01:05:53 PM
Interesting sidenote -- about a year ago Captain America died in "Last Hero Standing", based in the MC2 Universe of Spider-Girl, Avengers Next, etc.  Compared to his Earth-616 counterpart, this aging legend went out in true heroic fashion after a valiant one-on-one against Loki.  Thor even turned Cap's shield into a star to inspire future heroes.

One wonders if the death of the MC2 Captain America was in any way prompted by Marvel's Civil War plans.  Was this a "trial balloon", a bit of foreshadowing or perhaps even a preemptory "editorial comment" showing how the Cap SHOULD have gone?

I never paid much attention to the first Spider-Girl series until recently, but the overall atmosphere is far more positive than what I see in the mainstream Marvel Universe... or current DC, for that manner.  It's somewhat sad for a former Earth-1 Kara Zor-El fan that I actually find "Mayday" Parker more appealling and interesting than the "new" Supergirl.


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: TELLE on March 12, 2007, 03:18:16 PM
As for what Kirby would say to Englehart...well, that's hard to say. Kirby's political perspective is very weird at times. One of the things that strikes me about the Fourth World comics, NEW GODS in particular, is that it doesn't seem like something an American would make. The idea of two superpowers dueling over a country in between is something you'd imagine coming out of a smaller, non-aligned country.

I've always thought Kirby's politics were Democrat or liberal if not exactly left wing but so much of Kirby was also an ancrhonism by say, 1980.

Googling the subject of course turns up Mark Evanier on Kirby:

"Basically, he thought Captain America was bigger than any one writer's momentary politics, which is why he didn't inject his own into the stories he wrote."

He then goes on to five a sketch of his politics in an articlem part of which reads as follows:

Quote
Jack's own politics were, like most Jewish men of his age who didn't own a big company, pretty much Liberal Democrat. He didn't like Richard Nixon and he really didn't like the rumblings in the early seventies of what would later be called "The Religious Right." At the same time, he thought Captain America represented a greater good than the advancement of Jack Kirby's worldview. During the 1987 Iran-Contra hearings, Jack was outraged when Ollie North appeared before Congress and it wasn't just because North lied repeatedly or tried to justify illegal actions. Jack thought it was disgraceful that North wore his military uniform while testifying. The uniform, Jack said, belonged to every man and woman who had every worn it (including former Private First Class Jack Kirby) and North had no right to exploit it the way he did. I always thought that comment explained something about the way Kirby saw Captain America. Cap, obviously, should stand for the flag and the republic for which it stands but — like the flag — for all Americans, not merely those who wish to take the nation in some exclusionary direction. In much the same way, one of the many things Nixon had done that offended Jack was an attempt many decried, on the part of that administration, to usurp the American flag as a symbol of support for Richard Nixon.

Jack's 1976-1977 stories of Captain America — the ones where he had near-complete control — show very little evidence of his own political beliefs of the time. He felt strongly about many things happening in the world at that time, especially various battles and hostage situations relating to Israel, but he chose to keep his hero above those frays and to deal more in the abstract. Captain America made his greatest statement by wearing the flag with pride and by triumphing over all forms of adversity. To Jack, it was the great thing about the American spirit: That it was born of gutsy determination and, as with any good superhero, compassion for all. Some of the storylines he talked about but never had the chance to put into print would have reinforced the idea that Captain America was greater than any one man...including those who created his adventures.

http://www.povonline.com/notes/Notes031005.htm





Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Mighty Man on March 12, 2007, 07:58:50 PM
You think about it.
If Steve Rogers were a real person. He would have the moral values of my Grandfather (and of course not be as old).
He would be patriotic brassy, sorta racist, old school and stuck in his ways.
Maybe this is their attempt to put a new "modern" guy in the Captain America suit with modern values and ideas.
Not sure how they are going to get away with it but they will probably at least try for a year until they will most likely bring Steve Rogers back after it flops. Marvel really need to do something because the girl across the street selling lemonade probably profits more then them on a monthly basis.   ;D

It is ridiculously inaccurate to assume that all people from your Grandfathers era are racist. Nor would Steve Rogers himself be racist.

I am sorry. I hope no one gets offended by this. I found this on a site called http://www.shortpacked.com.  That post reminded me of this. By no means, I mean no harm.

(http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20070312cap.png)


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Super Monkey on March 13, 2007, 05:38:32 PM
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! Ok, you guys get a No_prize for seeing this coming a mile away!
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9962

just click on the link, Marvel REFUSES to let the Iron Age die.. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

They have become a parody of themselves! 


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Michel Weisnor on March 13, 2007, 06:23:25 PM
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! Ok, you guys get a No_prize for seeing this coming a mile away!
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9962

just click on the link, Marvel REFUSES to let the Iron Age die.. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

They have become a parody of themselves! 

 ;) That's Marvel.

A friend asked me about Captain America's death. I explained (to her) the Reader's Digest version of Civil War and it's aftermath. She snickered and told me Marvel trivialized complex world events to make a few extra bucks. I hate to say it, believe me I really hate to say it: she's right.         


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Uncle Mxy on March 13, 2007, 11:21:04 PM
A friend asked me about Captain America's death. I explained (to her) the Reader's Digest version of Civil War and it's aftermath. She snickered and told me Marvel trivialized complex world events to make a few extra bucks. I hate to say it, believe me I really hate to say it: she's right.
Of course, the same could be said for the WWII-era comics. 

It's hard to not trivialize, especially when real death is so rare in comics.  Steve Rogers certainly comes out of this alive and well.  Who knows -- maybe his brain gets merged with Red Skull's body? 


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Michel Weisnor on March 14, 2007, 09:04:42 AM
A friend asked me about Captain America's death. I explained (to her) the Reader's Digest version of Civil War and it's aftermath. She snickered and told me Marvel trivialized complex world events to make a few extra bucks. I hate to say it, believe me I really hate to say it: she's right.
Of course, the same could be said for the WWII-era comics. 

It's hard to not trivialize, especially when real death is so rare in comics.  Steve Rogers certainly comes out of this alive and well.  Who knows -- maybe his brain gets merged with Red Skull's body? 

Is there a difference between WWII and post-911 comicbooks?

Funny, Red Skull was killed earlier in Brubaker/Eptings run. He was back after only a few issues in a brand new body to boot. When Captain America returns, I wonder if he'll be a pawn or the real deal.   


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: TELLE on March 14, 2007, 11:35:03 AM
It's funny --the earliest example of "superhero death" in silver age marvel that i know of is Dr. Doom's body switch in ff # 10 or so.  A very tried and true "out" for villains.



Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: Super Monkey on March 14, 2007, 06:45:14 PM
new article on Death in Comics:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=105057

some funny stuff there


Title: Re: Captain America: Murdered
Post by: davidelliott on March 15, 2007, 03:14:10 AM
Knowing Marvel, it was prolly a clone who died or a decoy...