Superman Through the Ages! Forum

     Remember how DC did the original Crisis in 1985 partly because that was the 50th anniversary of DC as a company?  Remember how the 50th anniversary of Superman/Action Comics #1 seemed like a pale afterthought in comparison?  Makes sence if one of the biggest events in DC's history (the creation of a new DC Multiverse) starts in 2005 (DC's 70th anniversary) & concludes in 2008 (superman's 70th anniversary).  I hope that by that point the new DC Multiverse is infinite in scope.  Sorry, but a multiverse with only 52 universes is too small for me.


     I like how Grant is talking about the idea of DC having several "lines" of titles.  Each line being set on a different earth of the multiverse.  Also it would be interesting if each ongoing tv/movie franchise based on DC properties had its own earth in the new multiverse.  Of course any comics that direcly tie-into those tv/movie franchises should have their creative teams working with the creative teams of the franchise their title(s) "tie-into".  I.E. a title that ties into Smallville should be part of the series' continuity. 


      I can imagine the cover labels DC can give these hypothetical mini-lines.  Earth-2= DC/ALL-AMERICAN/EARTH-2.  Earth-4=DC/CHARLTON/EARTH-4.  Earth-5=DC/FAWCETT/EARTH-5.  Earth-10=DC/QUALITY/EARTH-10.


     How is the new Earth-2 different from the Pre-Crisis one?  How about this?  On the new Earth-2 Superman's continuity more accurately reflects the actual golden age stories.  His kryptonian name is Kal-El instead of Kal-L.  Luthor is bald.  Clark & Lois worked at both the Daily Star & the Daily Planet.  They started their careers at the Daily Star and early on they were hired away by the Daily Planet.  Sometime in the 1950s Clark goes back to the Daily Star becoming its editor-in-chief.

i agree,52 earths is WAY too tiny.... maybe it should be 52 main earths and the rest hold less solid reality, maybe only appearing for a short time, (like say, the elseworlds series, have earths appear for the duration of their series, maybe meet some mainstream people and then fade out).

and i dont think we should alter earth 2 facts to be "more correct" for the golden age. we dont have to stick to continuity THAT much. thats the point of having a crisis.. a new begining! earth 2 superman not a reporter, but a bedwetting supermodel! huzzah a piece of comic book genius! when do i get my paycheck?

as far as im concerned, the golden age happened on earth-2a,   earth-2 is a retooled earth-2a

well, if Earth-52 is the current DCU, then there is hope that Earth-1 is what I think it is.

Do you think All-Star Superman takes place on Earth-1 because All-Star Batman clearly happens in Frank Miller's Dark Knight world. DC has mandated The Dark Knight Returns happens in its own Earth why not do the same with All-Star Superman world?

AS-Superman may have its own Earth.. who knows.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;)

When "Infinite Crisis" was confirmed as the "successor" of "Crisis on Infinite Earths", I thought it was slightly odd that DC would be observing the 20th anniversary of COIE -- certainly the double DC Comics 75th / Crisis 25th anniversary in 2010 seemed more appropriate.  But "Infinite Crisis" proved to be just the starting point, and since then we've been dragged through a year of "52" and face yet ANOTHER year with "Countdown"...

How many expect that DC will release TWO MORE weekly series stretching through 2008 and 2009, leading up to the BIG event in 2010?  And how many plan to stick around that long?   :-\

Well, dto, I bought 52 sporadically, and I think it just about did for me. The Elongated man attempted suicide, Vic Sage died of cancer, and Black Adam pulled someone's head off. As if that wasn't enough, I was on the bus while I read the chapter in which the crocodile monster ate a character in half, only to find that a small girl sitting next to me was staring at the picture¹, so I probably traumatised her for life.

So in the unlikely event that anything important happens in the next few years, wake me up.

¹I swear this is true. Not a great moment.

Hurray for Showcase editions.

     Earth-1 should be silver-age DC.  All-Star Superman is not the silver-age version, even though he has elements of that version.  All-Star Superman should have his own earth/universe in the new DC Multiverse.  Just as i also think that every tv/movie/cartoon/comic strip version of DC's characters should have their own earths/universes.  Multiverses & possibilities should always be limitless.  Some people claim that means bothing matters.  I disagree.  Think of any deceased friend or relative.  Imagine that you meet their living counterpart from a "nearby" parallel earth.  I doubt you would forget that your loved one is still dead.


      Dto, what is so awful about the idea of having Superman's 70th anniversary be the conclusion of the big event DC started in 2005?  Granted that the story in Action Comics #1 was actually written in 1934 or 35.  So technically Superman's actual 70th anniversary could be said to have been in 2004 or 05.   

I agree

I am enjoying the heck out of JUSTICE, and I don't need it to be on any particular earth for me to enjoy it.

From the Wikipedia article:

Many aspects of Justice appear to relate to the Silver Age of comic books; Ross has a well-known affinity for that era. However, key differences distinguish the series from taking place in either Pre-Crisis or Post-Crisis DC Universe continuity. The series either takes place in a newly-rebooted past (post-Infinite Crisis), or in a parallel universe. Unlike other "imaginary" stories that fall outside of DC continuity, Justice does not bear the Elseworlds label.

Particularities of Justice's timestream and continuity:

    * Lex Luthor is still a mad scientist; there is no relation to his modern age backstory.
    * Brainiac appears in the form and costume of his first incarnation, Vril Dox.
    * Barry Allen, Iris West, Katar Hol, Hawkwoman, the original Doom Patrol, Black Manta and Arthur Curry Jr. are all alive.
    * Wonder Woman is on the team with Barry Allen. Following the original Crisis, Wonder Woman's debut didn't occur until after Barry Allen's death. Though post-Infinite Crisis continuity has restored her status as as a founding member, this was not the case when Justice started.
    * Hal Jordan still works at Ferris Aircraft Co. (In the current DC continuity, the character works at Edwards Air Force Base.)
    * The Cheetah is Priscilla Rich.
    * Ray Palmer is active as the Atom, and is depicted as talking to Jean Loring on his phone.
    * The Parasite is the Silver Age version, Maxwell Jensen.
    * Doc Magnus is not Veridium of the Metal Men.
    * Aquaman has both of his hands, and is still married to Mera.
    * Metallo does not appear to have morphing powers and is depicted with his Silver Age appearance of dark hair and mustache, as opposed to his current appearance (blonde hair, no facial hair).
    * Bizarro seems to be a villain, as he is in the Super Friends version rather than in his comic book appearances.
    * Elongated Man is on active duty.
    * Sue Dibny is alive.
    * Giganta appears in her Golden Age persona as an evolved ape rather than in her Dr. Zheul persona.
    * Leslie Thompkins is trusted by Batman and is a practicing doctor.
    * Captain Marvel, the Marvel Family and Black Adam all live on the same world as Superman.
 

     Justice should definetely have its own earth in the DC Multiverse.   Maybe Earth-9 (or Earth-11) could be the one otherwise known as Earth-Q or Earth-Quality.  How about this?  In the new multiverse, Earth-2 is just DC characters.  It could still have an All-Star Squadron in its history.  Also the traditional JLA/JSA crossovers would be more interesting (to me anyway) if they involve 4 titles on 3 earths.  Earth-1/Justice League of America;  Earth-2/Justice Society of America;  New Earth(Earth-0 or Earth-52)/current versions of both teams.  Of course an ongoing Whos Who would help.  There are several properties i would like to see DC acquire & add to its multiverse.  They include:  Hero Alliance; Power Facter; Justice Machine; T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents; the universe of Future Comics; and of course many others. ;D ;) :D

My understanding of the new '52 earths' is that they are not the pre-Crisis multiverse; they are simply a way of DC being able to sell title characters with more than one continuity at the same time. See here: http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=112868

While this seems like a good idea to be able to market different product lines to different groups (or sometimes factions) of comic book fans, this could fail as badly as Crisis on Infinite Earths, for these reasons:

1) What about new readers? Who could possibly follow what is going on in the larger, crossoverish DCU right now? Really!

2) Having 52 different earths does not address alternate timelines, as hypertime did. For example, All-Star Superman and Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow seem to both be alternate splits from the timeline of Earth-1 Superman. (The latter future Superman appeared in Superman/Batman issues, and therefore must exist some...when?) Likewise, there are the Earth-1 timeline splits of Kamandi's future vs. the Legion's future.

3) Writers and editors who supported the goal of Crisis on Infinite Earths- that is, to "simplify" the confusion caused by 6 or 7 earths, are going to be falling over one another trying to get their hands on the axe this time. Eventually, someone will let them.

4) The main question: did everything still happen? Hypertime allowed for the Marvel universe to exist as part of the DC Universe, in a separate timestream. Did the Marvel crossovers still happen? What about everything else for the last 70 years?

     All-Star Superman is not the silver-age/Earth-1 version.  The Earth-1(silver-age) Superman frequently cleaned his uniform by flying into the center of the sun.  Yellow star rays seemed to be more like an "on" switch for his powers.  All-Star Superman is a solar battery more like the current version.  ;) ::) ;D

All Star Superman is just Grant Morrison cherry picking his favorite parts of Superman through the Ages (not the website ;) ) and adding lots of cool new elements and remixing the old ones to make them fresh and new again, without losing what made the pre-crisis versions so cool in the 1st place. It's a lot harder than it looks!

  I have followed All-Star Superman from the first issue.  I do think it should have its own earth in the DC Multiverse.  Just not Earth-1.


          Notice how Grant Morrison calls DC's new multiverse a megaverse?  Marvel also says it has a megaverse.  The levels of reality/existance to Marvel basically are: universe; multiverse, contains a nigh-infinite number of universes; megaverse, contains a nigh-infinite number of multiverses; omniverse, the totality of all reality/existance..  Could Grant be hinting at something here?  In Countdown #51 Dan Didio says "there is no stopping the constant evolution of the DC Universe.  And with COUNTDOWN we are entering into our next and possibly greatest phase of change.  Be warned.".  I hope this means we end up with an infinite DC Multiverse. ;) :D ;D :D ;)  

I'm pretty sure the Kamandi/LSH discrepancy was actually fixed in a Maggin story somewhere.  And I think it even had something to do with that future costume that the Apes were hanging on to.

A lot of people seem to have forgotten that "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" was an imaginary story.  Like the original "Death of Superman," "Superman Red/Superman Blue," and those crazy stories where Luthor was Kal-El's father, or Superboy was Kara's nephew, it never happened.  That was the whole point!  It doesn't need to be accommodated, explained, or incorporated.  If Jordan Elliot has started showing up in other comic books, it's a misunderstanding and the last holdover from the Hypertime fiasco and should be forgotten.

All-Star Superman isn't really a split from the Earth-1 Superman, it's a split from the modern Superman.  It's the modern Superman where Crisis never happened.  Pre-Crisis, Superman's continuity slowly evolved over time instead of being rebooted.  So this is a "what-if," an extrapolation on the idea that Superman's exisiting continuity had continued to evolve from what it was in 1986 to today, with no reboot ever tossed in.

I think it means Marvel and DC are planning a merger, with Morrison as EIC.

The Kingdom implied that the imaginary stories did actually happen, somewhere. It's too early to tell how much of that has been retconned, though. At any rate, almost all of the imaginary stories diverged from the then-current Superman in an alternate future.


 ??? I fail to see the distinction.

All-Star Superman is a divergent future of Earth-1 where Crisis never happened. I think that's the same thing that you said.

       Actually All-Star Superman is a new separate version with elements of several other versions.  Not Earth-1.  The Earth-1 version is far more powerful than the All-Star version.

Well, I was just going by what Grant Morrison said once (http://"http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/features/112602239631900.htm): "We don’t go back to the beginning again, we start from where our Superman is RIGHT NOW and get straight into the action - almost as if he's had 20 years of alternative continuity going on behind the scenes of John Byrne's revision in 1985 - on a different Hypertime line, if you like. I'm trying to think of it as the re-emergence of the original, pre-Crisis Superman but with 20 years of history we haven't seen."

          TELLE, you did read my entire posting before responding to it.  Right?

     I remember also thinking that All-Star Superman was going to be the pre-crisis/earth-1/silver-age version.  Grant saying that Superman was going to get new powers & become terminally ill from flying into the sun told me otherwise.  I still enjoy reading Grant's version.  

I think we can imagine many increases and decreases in Superman's power levels over the last/lost 20-odd years so the Superman/sun thing is still entirely in keeping with Morrison's initial premise.  Ditto Supes getting new powers (remember the rainbow fingers?  heat vision?  flying?  all "new powers" gained by the E-1 Superman over the years).

llozy, I went back and read it several more times just now.  How should I have responded????

         We can imagine a lot of things.  Superman started flying in the 1940s.  Heck he started time travelling in the 1940s.  It was the Earth-2 Superman who learned his true origin by backtracking kryptonite meteors from earth to krypton.  He also already had heat vision in the 1940s.  I know it was in the 50s that the writers referred to heat vision  as a power separate from X-ray vision.  Iirc a lot of the stories from the 50s were considered (by DC) to be about the Earth-2 Superman.  Come to think of it, i never read anything where Grant outright said that All-Star Superman was the Earth-1 version. 

In the recent DC Nation, Dan Didio discusses the new multiverse and gives kudos to Julie Schwartz and company for the original multiverse concept. Below is an updated list of New Earths. Dan Didio also mentions how readers will see glimpses of the multiverse in Countdown and Countdown to Adventure starring Challengers from Beyond. So, look to the skies.   

Countdown of Catalogued 52 Universes

Confirmed

New Earth = Current DC Universe

Earth 2 = Golden Age

Earth 3 = Crime Syndicate of America (Golden Age?!)

Earth 4 = Charlton

Earth 5 = Captain Marvel & Family

Earth 8 = Angor (Extremists & Champions)

Earth 10 = Freedom Fighters vs Nazis

Earth 17 = Atomic Knights

Earth 18 = Justice Riders

Earth 21 = New Frontier

Earth 22 = Kingdom Come

Earth 26 = Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew

Earth 34* = Wonder Woman Amazonia (possibly Victorian Era includes Gotham by Gaslight)

Earth 48 = Forerunners (there is some confusion to what Earth the Forerunners originated Earth-34 or Earth-48)

Earth 50 = Wildstorm



Confirmed but not designated

Tangent Universe

Dark Knight Frank Miller (possibly Earth-7)

Vampire Batman

Red Son

1948-1958 Atom Era

Earth 1 (Silver Age?)

Post Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth (MoS Superman, Perez Wonder Woman, etc)

1990's Earth (Jurgens' mullet Superman)

Early 2000's DC (Birthright Superman etc)

Gotham by Gaslight Victorian Era

Conjurors

Timmverse DC Animated Universe

Earth-1 is earth DCU or Silver Age?

Morrison spills the beans on the whole Countdown thing:

http://mountainofjudgment.blogspot.com/2007/05/turnabout.html

How does Jurgens Superman rate? 

Just catching up on this thread --this is the single saddest comics-related anecdote ever.  And funniest!  That'll teach you to read comics in public!

Finally, after several years of crossovers, DC's devulging details of the real story behind Infinite Crisis and 52. Believe it or not, the true reveal appears in a one shot: Sinestro Corps Special. Where Infinite Crisis, 52, and OYL failed SCS pays off in spades.

Spoilers....





If you haven't been following Green Lantern v3, Sinestro formed his own fear inducing Corps of the most malevolent monsters in the New Earth Universe. On New Earth, the current Justice League of America attempt to capture Zoom to learn the whereabouts of Zoom's pal, former Secret Society member Sinestro. See, in sector 2418, the yellow Sinestro ring chose Batman first before settling for Amon Sur, Abin Sur's villainous son. So, Batman proactively gathers the League together to combat a potential threat to New Earth by trying to locate Sinestro through Secret Society members. Unable to apprehend Zoom, Hal Jordan decides to check back with Oa.

In sector 424, Green Lanterns pursue a Sinestro Ring with poor results, until Kyle Rayner as Ion arrives. Even after Ion captures the ring, it breaks free revealing many more Sinestro rings heading to designated sectors. In sector 3, Sinestro member Bedovian is alerted to begin. On Oa, Hank Henshaw, the infamous Cyborg Superman, is grilled by the Guardians on his knowledge of the 52. Multiverse Alert Through the wonders of exposition, the Guardians explain New Earth is a linchpin to the new Multiverse. If New Earth is destroyed, the 52 ends leaving only the antimatter universe. The Source Wall and the Bleed are mentioned. The Guardians decide to incarcerate Cyborg Superman with Superbo..man Prime for all eternity but not before the Guardians discuss a Book of Oa forbidden passage, "The Blackest Night" (originally quoted to Abin Sur by the demons of Ysmault) fortelling the upcoming Sinestro War.

At the Sciencells, the Oa holding prison, Guy Gardner harrasses Superbo..man Prime before trying to set up a meeting with the Guardians. In the Oa mess hall, John Stewart and Hal Jordan walk with Kyle Rayner who captured a Sinestro Ring. It seems Kyle Rayner never got over his mother's death and he appears at the breaking point. Feeding off Kyle's emotional loss,  the Yellow Ring breaks free, causes some havoc, and transports Ion to Qward.

On Qward, Kyle discovers dead Weaponers scattered about the planet's surface and stumbles across a Sinestro rally meeting. It seems the Sinestro Corps' modus operandi is to spread order through fear. Kyle Rayner tries to contact Hal Jordan but instead finds Sinestro has been waiting for him. Back on Oa, Green Lanterns determine Ion was sent to the antimatter universe, when suddenly a contingent from the Sinestro Corps ambush. Back on Qward, Kyle Rayner strives valiantly against all odds until Sinestro blasts him in the back knocking Ion out cold. Back on Oa, John Stewart kills the sniper Bedovian as Green Lanterns turn the battle in their favour. Until of course, they discover the intitial attack was a diversion signaled by all the Green Lantern rings seaching for new members. At the Sciencells, Stewart, Gardner, and Jordan discover the inmates were freed with a Sinestro Corps symbol blazing prominently in the background.

On Qward, Sinestro continues to mentally wear down Kyle Rayner. Just call Sinestro Senor Exposition, he explains the Parallax creature (again) then the true nature of Ion by ripping the Ion creature from Kyle's chest! The Guardians created Ion as a creature of order in need of a host similar to Parallax- a creature embodying fear. Sinestro continues to needle Kyle about Alex DeWitt's demise as well as his mother's recent illness and death. Then, Sinestro reveals the cause behind Kyle's mother's death- Despotellus a virus Sinestro Corps member. Enraged, Kyle screams he's going to kill Sinestro. However, Sinestro retorts the Guardians will never allow Kyle to kill, nor do the Guardians understand love or loss. Finally succumbing to Sinestro, Kyle gives up and is leviated to the yellow power battery where he's possessed by Parallax.

Meanwhile overlooking New Earth, two Guardians, the female Sayd and male Ganthet, discuss the impending doom realizing with the rebirth of multiverse returns... On Qward, Parallax and Sinestro walk down a long passageway discussing the gathering of the four heralds finally bowing before, in the foreground Superbo..man Prime, in the distance an almost repaired Cyborg Superman, and a gigantic very much alive Anti-Monitor.

The War continues in Green Lantern v3, Green Latern Corps, and most likely Countdown.       
               

Guess you had to be there.

I've seen a lot of chatter on the Web about how good the Sinestro Corps book is, but this just sounds like a huge mess of a story to me.  And in what way does it "pay off in spades"?

You almost lost me early on with this:


...followed by this:


I know Batman devolved into a prize jerk in recent years, but are we now saying he's rotten enough that a "Sinestro ring" would choose him to join a "fear-inducing corps of the most malevolent monsters" around? 

How did Batman react to an impartial, character-judging device scanning his soul and declaring him a bad guy?

 :o :o :o

I'd pick the Joker ahead of Batman on the scary-o-meter.]

So, is it the original Anti-Monitor or a New Earth version like the new Monitors?

Why is Superboy-Prime teaming up with the entity who destroyed his world or something very similar to it?

And why doesn't Hal just create a giant can of insecticide to use againt the yellow grasshopper of fear?

In Green Lantern #17, Batman was chosen. Check it out.  :)

"Welcome to the Sinestro Corps...

http://romney.homestead.com/files/BatCorps.JPG

Anti-Monitor Returns

http://romney.homestead.com/files/AntiMonitor.JPG

The storylines are all coming together. We finally discover the significance of New Earth, as well as, how Sinestro returned from the antimatter universe before Infinite Crisis with a new power ring. I'm guessing the Anti-Monitor's been around longer than we are lead to believe.

Update:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=118594

Update2:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=118792

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/005019374.cfm