Superman Through the Ages! Forum

A cut line from SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE identified the planet Krypton as being in a fictional galaxy, though it is much more likely that Krypton is in the Milky Way galaxy and that references to being born "a galaxy away" are hyperbole, owing to the presence of Kryptonite all over the Milky Way. What's more, in the Silver Age, there were several stories that had astronomers on Earth observing Krypton with advanced telescopes.

In Cary Bates's "Krypton Dies Again!" in ACTION COMICS #489, the light from Krypton's explosion reaches earth. Assuming that Superman is his traditional 29, and he was 2 years old when he was sent out in a rocketship, Krypton is 27 light years away. Kryptonian light has the same properties as ordinary light, as Superman is often able to catch up with it by going faster, so we can discount faster or slower light.

Krypton being 27 light years away sounds about right. This means that while Krypton was not ridiculously close to earth (not even in the top 100 closest stars, in fact), it is very likely that Krypton's red sun is probably visible to the naked eye. An Alan Brennert issue of BRAVE AND THE BOLD, where Krypton's location is available in star charts, and further, several Silver Age stories that have earth astronomers observing Krypton by telescope, seem to support this.

What's more, Krypton being so "close" to earth (relatively speaking) explains a great many things. For instance, why Kryptonite is everywhere here, and why Earth was Jor-El's first choice to send his son...and why in general there seems to be so much traffic between the two planets, including a Kryptonian colony on Atlantis in prehistoric times.

(As an aside about the availability of Kryptonite...it's very likely that some other condition in the universe is creating Green Kryptonite other than the destruction of Krypton, because the stuff is just too common. Kryptonite, after all, can be created synthetically. What's more, as none of the other colors of Kryptonite can be created synthetically or weaponized, at least on Earth-1, it STILL accounts for the relative rarity of Gold Kryptonite, for instance.)

Incidentally, here's an article from space.com about how they found 12 new stars - the closest of which is 33 light years away, not far from Krypton's 27 light years away is. It's conceivable a star like that could exist nearby and not be discovered.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/missing_stars_020111.html (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/missing_stars_020111.html)

27 light years? Wow, that's certainly close in astronomical terms. It still wouldn't really explain why there is so much Kryptonite on earth - in fact, it would still be a stretch of the imagination to posit that even one chunk made it to earth even if it didn't burn up on entering our atmosphere, but then stretching the imagination is what Superman's all about. (Come to think of it, it's ironic that Gold Kryptonite is so rare when you consider that gold was abundant on Krypton.)

It rather begs the question how fast Kal-El's rocket was travelling: in the film, Jor-El's holographic projection mentions that he has been dead for thousands of years, which is consistent with the idea that Krypton was very remote from earth. If the rocket was travelling at close to the speed of light (and one allows that Kryptonian technology was equal to such a feat), that would sort of make sense, what with relativity and all. It would still have taken Kal quite a long time to get here, though, and indeed he seems to age a few years during the trip: he departs as a baby, but seems to be about three when he crashes. Still, it's scientifically iffy.

In the comics, of course, the trip to earth seems very short, a matter of days or even hours, which you couldn't do over a distance of 27 light years, if one supposes that the rocket can't travel faster than the speed of light. More likely, Kal passes through a wormhole at some point, which makes the distance academic. Maggin has Superman casually mention that he uses wormholes as shortcuts when travelling through space: they truly are a boon to science-fiction writers.

The Superman movies clearly have Krypton be a ludicrous distance from the earth. The whole "dead for thousands of years" crack by Brando, the fictional galaxy name, and the fact that it took Superman - SUPERMAN - five years roundtrip get there and back.

I have not seen the Donner cut of II, but dollars to donuts there'll be even more references to distance.

The whole conversation in RETURNS that Superman has with Aunt May about how he's the sole survivor of Krypton seemed a little odd. More than one person has mentioned that it might be a set-up for a spin-off or Supergirl movie.

I always thought Supergirl's origin could do away with Argo City, which always seemed like an unecessary "middleman" in the origin; just have her rocket off in suspended animation (or in time dilating near-lightspeed) as an adult from Krypton. Which is what the recent writers did.


Funny you should say that, because E. Nelson Bridwell once explained that Kal-El's ship used a wormhole to travel to earth, and it is through this hole that chunks of Kryptonite were blasted to Earth. What's more, that's why Kryptonite keeps on showing up: because the wormhole linking Krypton to Earth stayed open. This also accounts for why so many other things from Krypton find their way to earth (e.g. Kru-El's weapon box) with some regularity.


This reminds me of an unintentionally hilarious Young Earth Creationist Wiki site that explained that the reason we have light coming from distant objects is because at some point in the distant past, God increased the speed of light. Young Earth Creationism and FUTURAMA collide!

I wish I had kept the link; it would be good to have a look at it before it became a wholly infiltrated parody site.

I've always assumed the movies' timescale is just messed up, because Jor-El screwed up on 28 versus 24 hours.  His command of earth units was clearly skewed...  perhaps he's accustomed to centons and yahren? :)

I wonder how Bridwell would explain the adventures where baby Kal left his ship and interacted with things in the cosmos before returning.

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Dr._Reese_Kearns

Its a little odd that Kryptonians lept from no interplanetary flight (and fairly "conventional" rockets to their moons) to speed of light transport.

It would have been more than a little odd if he actually had been having the conversation with Aunt May, though Peter Parker, the Spectacular Super-Man certainly has a nice ring to it.


I love the way they come up with increasingly comic-bookish explanations for anything they find suspect! I know they're worried about things like evolution being ungodly, but why in the world would the refraction of light be some sort of refutation of the existence of God? Hey, did this site you visited feature some sort of cartoon character called Larry the Lamb or something? I remember coming across a creationist site for small children in which Larry (or whatever his name was) and his friends extolled the virtues of creationism and vented their hatred for atheists and, bizarrely, coffee drinkers.


Yeah, that occurred to me too. I came up with an explanation, though: Jor-El was REALLY, REALLY smart. Best I can do.

I find it odd that if you're going to place Krypton 27 light years from Earth, why create a permanent wormhole in order to, in effect, place it right next door?  Why not just have Krypton be right next door in the first place - planet 12, or the former asteroid belt or something.  Originally, it was Krypton that died (from "old age"), not its sun.  And the color of the sun was no factor in Kryptonians having super-powers.  So Krypton could have been right here in this solar system with no conflict.  That way you have all the Kryptonite you want, and the space journeys could have been done with traditional rockets in a manageable time; consistent with Krypton's anti-rocketry history.

I think placing Krypton out in the nether-realms past Pluto makes the most sense.  Then it's not too close, but the occasional mysterious object (like Kryptonite meteors) can swing in close to Earth, then back out on their long, elliptical orbits.

I believe at one point it was stated that Kypton was on the exact oppersite side of the sun from Earth

>I find it odd that if you're going to place Krypton 27 light years from Earth, why create a permanent
Look at http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/nearstar.html
This gives a list of the nearest stars to the Sun. Quite a few red stars, but not sure if they any are red giants.

>And the color of the sun was no factor in Kryptonians having super-powers.  So Krypton could have >been right here in this solar system with no conflict.
I'd find it difficult to give up on one of the constant mentioned facts about Krytpon, namely it orbits a red star.

Also, when people tried to "explain" Superman's powers, I think his invulnerabilty was explained by the Sun being a yellow star?

It is difficult to reconcile Krypton having just discovered rocket flight and then Jor-El building one to send his son on a journey to Earth (OK, he at least tried his design first with Krypto!).

I don't know if someone can figure out perhaps the rocket somehow using the Phantom Zone projectors that Jor-El invented?

Unfortunately, can't have Krypton in the same orbit as Earth, but at the exact other side of the Sun. The Earth's orbit is ellipitical and we'd see it sometime or other.

Cheers, Jimmy-Neutron

Yes, it's pretty clear that Krypton has to be in a different solar system. Superman gets his powers from our sun, for one thing, and Kryptonians don't have super-powers on their home planet (I suppose you could explain that by saying that Krypton might be very distant from the sun, but then it would be a glacial planet, and it is in fact shown to have huge tropical jungles). I prefer to think of it as being in a distant galaxy, and the ol' wormhole conveniently gets rid of all the uncomfortable science.

actually, they did during the golden age: http://superman.nu/tales2/adventurestrip/

it was later recon into Earth-2: http://superman.nu/tales2/e2-origin/

Krypton in the Solar System might have been a cool idea for Golden Age Superman, but we're all used to the Red Sun/Yellow Sun explanation for powers that by this time, there's just no ditching it.

As for how Krypton could be rocket-free but Jor-El invents a lightspeed or faster ship...we have to remember that technology wasn't the reason that rocketry was not common on Krypton. It was the result of a nightmarish combination of environmental problems with social ones: for instance, the Wegethor disaster discouraged rocketry the same way on Earth that the Hindenburg disaster meant that lighter-than-air travel was mostly abandoned.

There was also the Zazura, a race of bloodsucking space creatures that live around Krypton. Superbaby's ship survived only because it had a red ore that repelled them.

Also, remember: Jor-El had contact with Daxamites, a space-travelling race, and had a very, very, very close opportunity to inspect their rocket technology.

Also, what Permanus said. Ever read a WORLD OF KRYPTON backup? Man, that dude Jor-El was the Doc Savage of Krypton. It makes sense he'd have a couple extra tricks up his sleeve he didn't share with the fuddy-duddies.

>Krypton in the Solar System might have been a cool idea for Golden Age Superman, but we're all used to >the Red Sun/Yellow Sun explanation for powers that by this time, there's just no ditching it.
These were interesting stories to recall, but I agree there is no ditching the Red Sun.

Also, would need to explain why the people in Kandor don't have superpowers? And why would make an artificial red sun so that they have day and night time?

>As for how Krypton could be rocket-free but Jor-El invents a lightspeed or faster ship...we have to >remember that technology wasn't the reason that rocketry was not common on Krypton. It was the
The only problem with introducing a lightspeed or faster ship is kryptonite? I suppose it might be argued that as Krytpon explodes, various amounts of kryponite is caught in the "wake" of the ship? Alternatively if Jor-El also created a worm-hole, the kryponite could have passed through that as well.

Why the sudden leap in rocket technology? Perhaps they did have rocket technology at one time but forgot about it as other, more convenient, forms of transportation were discovered? However, no mention of (eg) transmat beams on Krypton in any story I can remember.

Its comics, there are going to be problems with the science.  I don't care particularly, but the color of the light on the electromagnetic spectrum that a human eye can see from a star is not really a very good explanation for power or invulnerability.  Speed of light travel, if it ever becomes truly possible, is not really analogous to going to helium dirigibles and airplanes after a hydrogen explosion, I don't mind the idea that Jor-El could go from his own rocket technology to technology that may strain the boundaries of universal physics in a couple of years - but its a comic's leap of imagination and shattering of the realistic.

Im with ME-L on this.

To paraphrase Marlon-El, "This is not reality -- it's fantasy."

Jor-El was a genius much far advanced than his fellow scientists on Krypton.  That's why he knew the planet was going to explode and the others couldn't figure it out.

I believe Krypton was in a distant galaxy and Jor used wormhole technology to get Kal to earth?  Why earth?  Because it was the one planet where Jor felt Kal could blend in.  A more advanced planet might subject Kal to years if not a lifetime of study...plus, with the powers Jor knew Kal would develop, there was little chance of him being confined for such a purpose. 

As for kryptonite, apparently Jor's science allowed the wormhole to transport it to our galaxy, probably not on purpose.

I thought this was the original logic on Krypton's location - that is was the asteroid belt before it became the belt - on the way back 1940's.  I just laugh when I see this topic - do you have any idea how much time in science class I used trying to figure out the scientific angles to super-powers?


Sounds a bit like a story that's being produced here.  Hmmm...

I guess I have K-Metal on the brain.

Why not? The sci-fi behind K-Metal is pretty strong and unburdened by decades of "continuity"...

Ha ha.  He said "unburdened" and "continuity" in the same sentence, in a comics board; Superman's of all comics!  Must be some kind of award for that, must be.

   A lot of things about how krypton was depicted (in the 70s & 80s most of all) never made any logical sense.  Too often in the bronze age the writers & artists treated krypton as though it was no more advanced than 20th century earth.  It's also possible that krypton secretly suppressed space travel for many centuries (or millenia).  Imagine that krypton's leaders had known for a very very long time about the powers that kryptonians have when under a yellow star.  Imagine also that they had hints of how vast that power truly is.  Super-powered kryptonians could destroy entire star systems with incredible ease.  Imagine that a kryptonian criminal manages to leave their star system.  He (or she) could destroy countless star systems before being stopped.  Also he might decide to be the only one to have kryptonian powers.  He looks back at krypton's sun with his telescopic vision.  He then adds his heat vision to the mix & makes krypton's sun go super-nova.  Would krypton's leaders want to allow anyone to leave krypton?  It could be that the science council did secretly believe Jor-El's claims.  They just believed that it was better for krypton (& its people) to die, than to inflict billions of nigh-omnipotent super-powered kryptonians on the universe.


     It was explained in the comics that Kal's ship had a warp or hyper drive.  That drive was not perfect it opened a spacial rift that allowed an unspecified portion of krypton's mass to follow kal's ship to earth's star system.


     Julian, i also read that cary bates story.  Krypton was implied (by that story) to be within 50 light years of earth.  In the 70s DC largely claimed that Earth-1 Superman started his career as an 8 year old Superboy circa 1944.  And in the 70s they also had stories with a 14-16 year old Superboy in the early-mid 1930s. 

>>
     Julian, i also read that cary bates story.  Krypton was implied (by that story) to be within 50 light years of earth.  In the 70s DC largely claimed that Earth-1 Superman started his career as an 8 year old Superboy circa 1944.  And in the 70s they also had stories with a 14-16 year old Superboy in the early-mid 1930s. <<

Well, actually, in the 70s DC decided Superboy's teen years were in the 1950s (moved up from the 1930s)...

I know that somewhere Kypton frowned on space travel as well as aliens (that latter point was the story that introduced Mon-El - right here on this board).  But, what a stunning idea to think that this was all preplanned to keep Kryptonians from getting out into space.  I makes sense in the sequel/recon of Superman's Return to Krypton, post-crisis (the Brainiac 13 created Krypton) - but what a neat angle for overall Kryptonian isolationism.

And that decision was wrong in my opinion - it was already bad enough to have to suffer through the Kents being made "young" and Nazi threats to Smallville, but that "golden" netherworld of Superboy in a bright Smallville of undetermined age (other than wide fenders on the cars) was lost.  Next thing you know, writers were making up stories about Superboy and the Bermuda Triangle (how typically 80s) and having college (even though he was a documented Superman in college) roommates with substance abuse problems.  Blech...

Hyper or warp drive to Jor-El's rocket?  I have to see that reference.  I seem to remember a "World of Krypton" story about Jor-El adapting an alien warp engine to make his rocket, but by then (maybe late 70s?), the history of Krypton was so cluttered.

Well Krypton was in an entirely different Space Sector (as split up by Green Lanterns) so its probably really super far away (even if its the closest space sector to our space sector)

I always guessed that the kryptonite followed Supes spaceship to earth. Now how it did this I dont think its ever said in the comics. I'll just guess the ship opens up some kind of wormhole and the kryponite got sucked in on the way to earth)

One would think that even if krypton had a HUGE explosion most of the kryptonite would be left orbiting  Rao.

Actually some of it is explained on this site http://superman.nu/tales2/world/1/

There you go...not a big fan of that story, seems to add a lot of stuff, almost like the Black Zero story.  But then my motto was "never trust a comic over 15 cents", LOL...  ;D

I think I know what you mean, but this has more to do with the portrayal of what they share with us, their humanity. For all the advanced technology, they are as human as us, with myths, legends, superstitions, customs and cultures, and certainly all of our foibles.


You're kidding. I'm glad I missed it.

I think his roomate was an alcoholic, and "Superboy" has career changing angst about not preventing his accidental paralysis in an auto accident.  Those stories are in the "Superboy: The Secret Years" stories.  Maybe I'm being unfair, but the stories in those issues are very different than I imaging Superman's college years and are very 1980s in tone to me.

Remarking on a few previous posts:

- Think even in the 60s, it was shown that Superboy didn't become Superman until around age 20 or 21 (sophomore or junior year of college), judging from the two conflicting tales of how it happened (the professor with his lie detector, the social worker and activist Superboy met) along with the tale "Superboy's Last Day in Smallville". So seeing him as Superboy for part of his college career in "Secret Years" shouldn't be too unusual (in the story, he becomes Superman in his junior year). I enjoyed "Secret Years", even if it seemed to retcon the first meeting of Lori and Clark (having an extra character there when they first meet)/the goofiness of that Bermuda Triangle stuff...

There's also a story in "New Adventures of Superboy" #49 or 51 (apparently a reprint of two tales from the "Superman: the In-Between Years" series in "Superman" in the early 80s) showing Superboy's first week or so in Metropolis for college, where he thwarts a gang war between gangs from Metropolis and Gotham City and Perry White gets to break the story of Superboy's debut there.

- Think the "World of Krypton" story was, like "World's Finest" #271's various Superman-Batman first meetings, an attempt to summarize most of the various tidbits of Kryptonian lore about Jor-El's life that we'd glimpsed over the previous years... pretty sure a lot of the characters/elements mentioned appeared in earlier 50's-70's tales about Krypton.

Agreed.  Its all my opinion, but I think a lot of this is based on "where you came in". I was very used to the "Hall of Fame" Superboy reprinted stories in 1960s DC titles and I read my brother's Lori Lemaris comic to death.  Clark is certainly drawn and acts like an adult in that story and I think its important to the story that he meets Lori alone and the relationship is not known - it emphasizes the loneliness of a super being in another strange environment (college) once again. I can see why writers had to update Superman in the late 60s and 70s (I didn't like it but that's just my opinion).  I really just thought they should have left Superboy in a nebulous and bright "past" rather than drag him through the issues of the ages as he was moved through decades of time settings.

I guess I usually feel that the failings of many ages are the updating of past events (even when other stories are incorporated).  I wish DC sat down with the writers and said "ok, this year we are going to have 3 total stories about Superman's past, including 'untold stories', and that's it - come up with new stuff!"  ;D

I think Julian's Doc Savage/Jor-El analogy is apt --Jor-El was perhaps the greatest scientific genius and adventurer in Krypton's history (and perhaps in the entire galaxy).  The invention of the Phantom Zone and Jor's interstellar adventures are indications that he could create FTL or even warp drives.

(I would like to see a brain-off between Jor and Lex Luthor!)

On the question of Krypton's distance from Earth, as usual Supermanica is very helpful in terms of canonical truth:


http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Krypton#Astronomical_and_Planetary_Details

I'm just not buying it...either Jor-El found this technology like in the World of Krypton story (and that seems really ad hoc and goofy to me) or he invented faster-than-light travel (possibly impossible according to physics) but could not come up with a way of saving more citizens a few months earlier.

As I understand it, the FTL drive was easy.  It was ratcheting all those bolts (riveting all those rivets?) that was the hard part.  That and the crying baby keeping him awake and all those Science Council meetings and visiting time travellers that prevented the work getting done anytime sooner.

Perhaps Krypton was only 27 light years away or so (Maggin goes with Antares IIRC), but some force surrounded its solar system with a space warp to prevent another "Kryptonians Gone Wild" incident.  FTL was harder in the Kryptonian solar system than anywhere else because of the containment field.     Think of what Galactus did with the Silver Surfer, only on a bigger scale.

That and trying not to use any of that worthless gold in the prototype.