Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Coming Attractions! => Topic started by: Michel Weisnor on June 26, 2007, 10:51:33 AM



Title: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Michel Weisnor on June 26, 2007, 10:51:33 AM
Possible Spoilers for an upcoming storyarc?

http://www.alexrossart.com/rossreport.asp?id=324


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: nightwing on June 26, 2007, 12:00:14 PM
Good Lord, could his Power Girl look any dumpier?

A few more pics like this and PG's fan base of drooling pubescents should dwindle down to nothing.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: MatterEaterLad on June 26, 2007, 12:08:00 PM
Never liking Power Girl AT ALL, I have to say that this rendering is odd, a square jaw and strong lines on the face don't match the already odd "two basketballs" in the shirt look.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: nightwing on June 26, 2007, 12:19:00 PM
She looks like a slightly younger Ross Superman in drag.  Except he's got narrower hips.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Criadoman on June 26, 2007, 02:40:23 PM
Actually, I luv PG.  I hate the Ross interpretation however.  Give me Andy Ha!'s version any day of the week!


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Michel Weisnor on June 26, 2007, 06:09:30 PM
It's unfortunate Alex Ross' interpretation of Power Girl is so masculine. Even his Wonder Woman is rather "muscular". Somewhere along the way, DC artists began rendering powerful females with disproportionate cut appearances. I recall an issue of JLA, where Wonder Woman was dating Bruce Wayne and she looked rather ridiculous. On the other hand some warrior women, such as Big Barda, work.

Back to Power Girl, I always figured she was curvy and not worried about her biceps. Wasn't she based off Jayne Mansfield?

     


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Permanus on June 26, 2007, 07:27:56 PM
Back to Power Girl, I always figured she was curvy and not worried about her biceps. Wasn't she based off Jayne Mansfield?

Was she? I have no idea. I always assumed that she embodied the desirable-but-unattainable ethic, a sort of self-punishing fanboy thing. It says a lot that Ross makes her more masculine, but with the evident feminine features: it's basically the idea that if a woman doesn't fancy you, she must be a lesbian. Or am I getting far too psychosexual?


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: MatterEaterLad on June 26, 2007, 07:50:00 PM
I think I understand my ire toward Power Girl more now...I actually wasn't a fan of a ton of Earth 2 characters being introduced, but the idea that she was so outrageously proportioned just seemed silly.  The muscled effect of all heroes lately leaves me cold too. 8)


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Super Monkey on June 26, 2007, 09:34:08 PM
here is a much better realistic drawing of Power Girl:
(http://nerd-central.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/power_girl.jpg)


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on June 26, 2007, 10:22:48 PM
They still look like Kryptonian implants.....uh...basketballs. 

Earth 1's Kara is so much better proportioned and cuter. ;)


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Criadoman on June 26, 2007, 11:49:06 PM
I understand we have Wally Wood to thank for her, ahem, "attributes".  The story goes he was ticked at DC for some reason, or was trying to make a point that no one paid attention to the book.  In any case, the game was to see how big he could "endow" her til some editor noticed.  Apparently - none have.  But I ain't complaining.

However, Ross' Wonder Woman bordered.  It makes sense for a muscular Wonder Woman (not too much though, I've always liked her more fitness model like than body builder like) - and sometimes he went bulgy and sometimes not so much.  But, she's Amazon warrior type, therefore I'd expect her to be cut.

I don't see why a Kryptonian would need to be anymore than fit, particularly a Kryptonian woman.  Their strength isn't so much the muscle as it is the lighter earth gravity/yellow sun thing.  There'd have to be some serious isometrics being done to create that kind of bulk.  (Or maybe the yellow sun is actually steroids to E2 Kryptonians?)


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: MatterEaterLad on June 27, 2007, 12:30:49 AM
Here's the weird thing to me (remember, a guy who stopped reading comics in 1972).

I really liked the idea of Earth 2 being a planet where Superman was Golden Age and for all we know "the last survivor of Krypton".  It seemed like a best of all world's scenario. Who needs Power Girl?

I can sort of endorse Earth Prime, but then a superhero comes to that "real" earth (and other deviating plotlines come in) and later Superboy Prime and its just another super hero universe. DC really needed to reign in the writers to make the multiverse really interesting.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Aldous on June 27, 2007, 12:39:36 AM
Quote
Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl

Yes, aside from the puffy face and bad skin, the breasts are bizarre. The lady's breasts in the picture posted by Super Monkey are also quite bizarre.

What is it with current American comic book artists? Why can't they draw a female breast? I suspect they haven't seen one since babyhood. I have never seen real-life breasts shaped like grapefruit, yet that is how most American artists draw them, especially for the covers. Of course, American men are obsessed with breasts, and we can probably put it down to momism and the apron strings, or something.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on June 27, 2007, 08:31:35 AM
Or an obsession with plastic enhancement that bear no resemblance to a feminine reality.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Criadoman on June 27, 2007, 09:38:04 AM
Of course, American men are obsessed with breasts, and we can probably put it down to momism and the apron strings, or something.
As opposed to what?  A "European" or "Canadian" male?  "Momism", "apron strings"?

Try this one (hope I can get away with this on this board)...
Americian advertising is a very interesting thing.  Whereas a nude female form seems a more acceptable, common and apparently inoffensive outside the US, my observation indicates that our advertisting leans very heavily toward positioning the female anatomy as "taboo", for lack of a better term.  Seems to be much money to be made keeping it that way.  I don't think this is the same for European cultures - at least if commercials and programming on TV are any indication.  It certainly doesn't seem as offensive there as it appears here in the US.

I do however, believe that it is Madison Avenue that is primarily responsible for defining the subconscious responses, interpretations and "over-attention" to this particular asset.

I personally have found that in some of my own art, when I draw a female form - and consciously attempt to downplay this, I find that I'm still critiqued for the size as too large.  Therefore, I can immediately determine that there is some constant reinforcement I'm exposed to regarding size that constantly shifts my scale as to small-medium and large.  Advertisting was the source I discovered - then reinforced in other mediums (e.g. push-up bras that produce cleavage that makes them appear larger, etc.)

Ultimately I found if you're going to be skilled at this aspect of anatomy, you need to constantly retrain your eyes to stay more anatomically correct.  However, puritan hypocritical mores we are sometimes a little too guilty of in the US tends to make this natural attribute a very unpopular subject to study.  However, I can see where an artist in this field would be rather compelled to follow suit as to what seems is appropriate in print, television and movie mediums, i.e. "hey - they all got 'em", and there very well could be some marketing/editorial pressure to ensure that is the case.  I mean where would good girl art be without Vampirella?  I'm fairly certain part of PG's genesis had visions of Vampi floating around.

In short, "momism" and "apron strings" have very little to do with anything.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Michel Weisnor on June 27, 2007, 10:53:45 AM
I don't remember where I read Power Girl was based off Jayne Mansfield. Any help would be appreciated. Was the Wally Wood story just a false urban legend?

I still don't understand artistic fascination with extremes. Check out both cover to Justice League of America 10.

http://comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=352717&zoom=4

The top cover, rendered by Michael Turner, is blatantly misproportioned and very Rob Liefeld. Bottom Cover, by Phil Jimenez, portrays Power Girl as a square jaw bodybuilder boxom woman. Understand, I am not saying Power Girl should be drawn without her original look, just at least with some anatomical correctness.

Another question, why does Power Girl not wear a Kryptonian symbol? 


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: nightwing on June 27, 2007, 11:44:49 AM
Criadoman writes:

Quote
Ultimately I found if you're going to be skilled at this aspect of anatomy, you need to constantly retrain your eyes to stay more anatomically correct.  However, puritan hypocritical mores we are sometimes a little too guilty of in the US tends to make this natural attribute a very unpopular subject to study.  However, I can see where an artist in this field would be rather compelled to follow suit as to what seems is appropriate in print, television and movie mediums, i.e. "hey - they all got 'em", and there very well could be some marketing/editorial pressure to ensure that is the case.  I mean where would good girl art be without Vampirella?  I'm fairly certain part of PG's genesis had visions of Vampi floating around.

Even Vampi's cup size has gone up and down over the years; she wasn't always a Dolly Parton type.

What's rather more disturbing is that life is trying to ape art, as women purposely alter their breasts to look more like artistic renditions that weren't accurate in the first place.  With that kind of inverted logic in play, an artist needn't bother learning anatomy; he can just invent his own anatomy and define "beauty" for a society divorced from reality.  If a woman doesn't look the way he draws them, it's the woman's fault, not the artist's.  ???


Michel Weisnor writes:

Quote
The top cover, rendered by Michael Turner, is blatantly misproportioned and very Rob Liefeld. Bottom Cover, by Phil Jimenez, portrays Power Girl as a square jaw bodybuilder boxom woman. Understand, I am not saying Power Girl should be drawn without her original look, just at least with some anatomical correctness.

Yes, there seem to be two ways of drawing PG these days; vapid model with balloons attached, or mannish thug with balloons attached.  Neither is very sexy in my opinion, whereas Wood's original version -- which I would describe as a bit zaftig and decidedly underage -- had loads of appeal.  Until she opened her FemiNazi mouth, anyway.  Plus, there's just something fascinating about the visual dissonance of a porn-star body topped with a Florence Henderson hairdo.

Anyway, getting back to Ross, his women look like the old East German swim team.  The boobs "prove" they're women, but they have zero sex appeal.  Well, okay, so that "NightStar" or whoever (Dick and Kori's daughter) was pretty cute, but otherwise these girls are in serious need of some makeup at the very least.  I mean, I feel kind of bad harping on this because I know Alex Ross uses models for everything so these women must really exist somewhere, but honestly, has anyone besides Ross himself ever imagined Kara Zor-El looking as plain and ungirly as this:

(http://www.dccomics.com/media/products/3455_180x270.jpg)


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Permanus on June 27, 2007, 04:28:20 PM
I mean, I feel kind of bad harping on this because I know Alex Ross uses models for everything so these women must really exist somewhere

That's partly the problem, actually - I've seen the photos he uses for the covers on Astro City, for instance, and he never seems to be able to get away from the model's expression, which is inevitably going to be a bit distanced. Basically, he draws what he sees. I'm sure the models he uses are very attractive people usually, but he poses them for the lighting and stuff, then just renders their vacuous expressions, which doesn't really contribute to making them sexy. Ross only seems to do a few facial expressions, by the way (pleasant surprise, unpleasant surprise, not very happy, amused, and quite cross); this might be because his style of painting seems directly lifted off 1950s advertising.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Criadoman on June 27, 2007, 05:24:43 PM
In re: Wally Wood - this story was soooo oft repeated, I sincerely doubt it is urban legend.  But this would be a great for that Comic Urban Legends revealed thing on CBR.

In re: Jayne Mansfield - never heard this one.  Someone should submit these to the above.

In re: No symbol - there was something I think in Infinity Inc where she decided not to wear the symbol til she earned it. In JSA I know for certain she flaunted it on purpose, and some reasoning being that it symbolized strong and liberated feminine hero - but I'd have to reread the story.  Obviously it didn't stick with me.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Criadoman on June 27, 2007, 05:33:46 PM
this might be because his style of painting seems directly lifted off 1950s advertising.

Funny you should mention this.  I've read where Alex studied the heck out of Andrew Loomis (I think it's Andrew - I've got some of his books) who was very big in 1950's advertising illustration and painting to my understanding.  If I'm not mistake, I believe Alex's mom was also an artist working in advertising during that time.

I personally like Alex's stuff outside of the PG, WW and a few other pics I've seen of other characters.  I have to give the guy credit for the impact he did make on the comics scene and a lot of the reinvigoration he introduced during the 1990s dark times.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Super Monkey on June 27, 2007, 07:46:57 PM
ok, Adam Hughes draws her the best other than Wally Wood, I don't like it when artists draw her looking like a she-male:

(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a3/Powergirl_ah_jsa.png)
(http://www.freeweb.hu/nitro1/gallery/kepek/Adam%20Hughes/PowerGirl.jpg)

More AH! here: http://www.justsayah.com/


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Criadoman on June 27, 2007, 10:29:23 PM
Oh wow, I just realized I was saying Andy Ha I was meaning Adam Hughes.  Color me stupid.  This is the guy I meant.  Thanks Super-monkey.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: dto on June 28, 2007, 03:48:46 AM
Nightwing, I never particularly cared for that Alex Ross Supergirl poster.  Kara looks absolutely bored, exhibiting no personality whatsoever.  One of Supergirl's endearing qualities was that she was far more approachable and engaging than her oftentimes "stiff" older cousin.  But Ross' portrait radiates none of Kara's warmth and sparkle.  In comparison, Ross' smiling Batgirl poster is definitely more appealling.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: nightwing on June 28, 2007, 08:27:26 AM
Good point about Ross painting his subjects exactly as they appear in real life.  In other words, bored, uncomfortable and embarassed to be wearing a goofy costume in Alex Ross' study.

It extends to other elements of his drawings; the costumes look like just what they are: cobbled-together outfits made of impractical materials, complete with seams, gaps and other imperfections.  It works to some extent on Superman because we're already used to seeing real human beings in that outfit, but many heroes just come off as ridiculous.  Green Lantern, for example, had one of the sleekest and most elegant costumes ever as designed by Gil Kane, but once translated to real life it's just spandex and cloth booties...a cross between pajamas and a ballet outfit.  And Barry Allen's Flash outfit, so revolutionary and exciting in 1956, just looks ridiculous, including seams in the cowl that make it look like his mom sewed it for him for Halloween.  And don't even get me started on Green Arrow, whose outfit seems to have been assembled from Hefty trash bags!

Can Alex Ross draw people?  Unquestionably, yes.  Can he make superheroes look real?  You bet.  But in the end his art just exposes the elephant in the room; in real life, superheroes look like pathetic clowns.

One good thing about it, though; having taken "realism" to its logical extreme, Ross has given me a new appreciation for the cartoony, stylized work of Segar, Gould, Crane, Kirby and Sprang.  Whatever Ross' style is, it's not comics.

Oh, and as for PG not wearing a Kryptonian symbol, don't forget for 20+ years she wasn't Kryptonian, and given DC's slippery grasp on continuity, it's probably better they leave themselves an "out" for the next time they change her origin, probably by Christmas.



Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on June 28, 2007, 11:46:08 AM
Im a big fan of Andrew Loomis' swork and book as is Steve Rude.  And both knew how to draw women well and sexy without tending toward freakish.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Super Monkey on June 28, 2007, 01:13:47 PM

Oh, and as for PG not wearing a Kryptonian symbol, don't forget for 20+ years she wasn't Kryptonian, and given DC's slippery grasp on continuity, it's probably better they leave themselves an "out" for the next time they change her origin, probably by Christmas.




it will turn out that she was, in fact a Skrull all along.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Klar Ken T5477 on June 28, 2007, 01:29:45 PM

Oh, and as for PG not wearing a Kryptonian symbol, don't forget for 20+ years she wasn't Kryptonian, and given DC's slippery grasp on continuity, it's probably better they leave themselves an "out" for the next time they change her origin, probably by Christmas.



it will turn out that she was, in fact a Skrull all along.

Or a clone........... :o


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Superman of America on June 28, 2007, 05:06:32 PM
Power Girl's a man, baby!!!! LOL!  ;D


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Johnny Nevada on June 28, 2007, 09:49:15 PM
The original reason PG didn't wear the S-shield (which pre-Crisis *wasn't* a Kryptonian symbol) was that she wanted to stand out on her own as a superheroine, and not be confused or compared with her famous cousin, Superman.

Judging from the alternative "chest window" choice Kara made, I gather she found another, erm, "manner" to "stand out"... :-\


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Just a fan on June 29, 2007, 02:08:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZgj8UyNN9c


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Criadoman on June 29, 2007, 10:34:14 AM
The original reason PG didn't wear the S-shield (which pre-Crisis *wasn't* a Kryptonian symbol) was that she wanted to stand out on her own as a superheroine, and not be confused or compared with her famous cousin, Superman.

Judging from the alternative "chest window" choice Kara made, I gather she found another, erm, "manner" to "stand out"... :-\

She's such a "bouyant" personality.

It's hard for her not to keep her chin up.

She faces her opposition "chest forward", and "torpedoes" to victory.

Her "assets" speak volumes about her.

I guess one could say that she found a much more *ahem* "classic" symbol, then.


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: TELLE on June 29, 2007, 07:48:00 PM
I think Nightwing is right on the money with this.  I've never found any of Ross' faces particularly expressive or interesting (or appealing, aside from maybe his Superman).  He is at his best when his faces are doing that sort of mournful, frowning, anger thing.  His costumes show up the riduculous nature of superhero costumes (that's why his best are armoured or "toga'd" heroes).  He has no gift for portraying action --unless you enjoy the spectacle of falling statues.

To his credit, by copying the faces of models, he at least is giving a sort of variety to the heroes he portrays (now if only he could use more models).  In one way, the plain-ness of his characters is more realistic:  who (besides How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way and 1950s Madison Avenue) says heroes always have to be classically beautiful?

I think the actual Wizard cover is not the worse thing he has done --E2 Superman and Power Girl are related, no?  Why shouldn't they look similar.  Power Girl is a ridiculous character anyway --nothing to get upset about at this late date.  Just sad.

And I think that Wally Wood liked to draw over-endowed women and didn't need a grudge against DC for an excuse, no matter how he may have tried to rationalize it later.

 


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Superman of America on June 29, 2007, 09:54:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZgj8UyNN9c
That was classic! My favorite line was "I'm Power Girl dammit!" ;D


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Great Rao on June 29, 2007, 10:40:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZgj8UyNN9c
That was classic! My favorite line was "I'm Power Girl dammit!" ;D

That one was actually the sequel to this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUiNFzzF-ZI


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: jamespup on June 29, 2007, 11:41:01 PM
I have to agree with Ross using models, everyone looks REAL to me......I've known people who look like that.

Has ANYONE ever met a Curt Swan Superman lookalike?  or any supporting Silver Age character?   


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Super Monkey on June 29, 2007, 11:44:12 PM
And I think that Wally Wood liked to draw over-endowed women and didn't need a grudge against DC for an excuse, no matter how he may have tried to rationalize it later.

What gives you that Idea? http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Location/6572/ (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Location/6572/)


Title: Re: Wizard Cover: Ross Superman & Power Girl
Post by: Superman of America on July 01, 2007, 01:21:48 AM

That one was actually the sequel to this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUiNFzzF-ZI
That was better than the first...Er, the sequel. Power-Girl being forced to take a job because she's wrecking the city. Classic!