Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Superman Comic Books! => Superman! => Topic started by: Aldous on May 02, 2011, 06:04:04 AM



Title: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: Aldous on May 02, 2011, 06:04:04 AM
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/superman_goes_all_obama/ (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/superman_goes_all_obama/)

Huh?

If Superman's not American, he's not Superman.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: Great Rao on May 02, 2011, 10:17:04 AM
I actually picked up Action 900 based on this news story.  The issue is a collection of tales by various writer/artist teams, and the entire book is excellent.

I'm puzzled as to when Superman ever became an American Citizen, though.  I know that Clark is, but Superman?  Does this mean he doesn't pay his income tax anymore or something?  Just doesn't really make sense to me.  And is Clark still a citizen? Do the Feds know that Clark and Superman are one-and-the-same?  The whole thing just doesn't make sense, but within the story it works on a symbolic level.  In the words of Superman, "... which is why I intend to speak to the United Nations tomorrow and inform them that I am renouncing my U.S. citizenship -- I'm tired of having my actions construed as instruments of U.S. policy. 'Truth, justice, and the American Way' -- it's not enough anymore.  The world's too small. Too connected."

The world is definitely changing, and I think it's worth exploring where Superman fits in such a world as it changes.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: nightwing on May 02, 2011, 11:18:44 AM
Whatever politics are or aren't behind this move, it's still just as stupid.

There's no way Superman has American citizenship in the first place, because for all intents and purposes he is not a real person, even in his own Universe.  He is a suit and cape; he doesn't have a birth certificate (get on that, will you, Donald?), a social security number or a mailing address, he doesn't pay taxes, is not registered with Selective Service, etc.  And lacking all those things, he cannot logically have a bank account, credit cards, a mortgage or lease, a checking or savings account or even PayPal.  Superman does not exist in the eyes of the government as he pays no taxes, earns no income and cannot possibly vote. 

Clark Kent has all those things, and thus he has citizenship.  But he's not talking about giving that up, he's talking about giving up a *second* citizenship he somehow claims to possess because of a change of clothes.  This makes as much sense as a Disneyland employee gaining a second citizenship during the periods he's in the Donald Duck suit.

This is just another example of how, just as soon as you try to introduce "realism" to comics, the whole thing comes crashing down like the house of cards it is. 


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: carmine on May 02, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
Superman did pay taxes!!
he owed a million in back taxes at least twice

The entire "story" was lame anyways (even disregarding the whole citizenship thing)

Superman just stands there? I miss it back when Superman would trick bad guys into giving up


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 03, 2011, 09:53:31 AM
I wondered when someone would get around to posting about the 900th issue of Action Comics--an historic event that should be recognized by Superman Thru the Ages--it's just unfortunate that, like everywhere else it seems, the attention is given to the "controversy" about one nine page story, rather than the over all issue and what that issue represents in comics history and Superman history.

In case you missed it, this issue represents the return of Superman in a starring role in Action Comics (the comic he single-handedly has made a success for all these years), after being denied that feature status for over two years!!!

As far as that one story goes, I think it's just David Goyer considering some ideas he has about Superman. Maybe these ideas will appear in a Superman movie. But I like the concept that Superman is an invisible visible. I think that is a theme we have seen in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. And the extra-ordinary status of Batman allowed him to bring in a criminal from Chinese sovereign territory--violating all kinds of international agreements. So if Bruce Wayne, with his high-tech gadgets, can pull that off--just think what Superman can do with his extra-human abilities.

Rather than the citizen question per se, I would like to see a movie develop that idea of Superman as a presence in the world, but one that no ordinary mortal can quite grasp. The struggle in the mind of a mere human being to actually perceive Superman--who defies human perception--would be something to explore. It would also make clear the difference between Clark and Superman.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: DBN on May 03, 2011, 10:09:10 PM

This is just another example of how, just as soon as you try to introduce "realism" to comics, the whole thing comes crashing down like the house of cards it is. 

Writers used to create allegories for real world problems that fit the mold of the fictional sandbox they played in. Now, they are too lazy to do so and the real world problem makes no bloody sense within the context of the fictional universe.

On another note, Superman was potrayed as a wuss once again. Taking a hippie approach to an oppressive regime? Yawn. I want the Superman from the 80's that had no problem removing despots from power after reducing their armed forces to rubble back. That Superman had gall. What's the Goyer-written Superman in the upcoming movie going to do against Zod? Send in some flower children to negotiate with the General? Maybe sing kumbaya and hope the madman comes to his senses? Weak.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: nightwing on May 03, 2011, 10:17:28 PM
Quote
In case you missed it, this issue represents the return of Superman in a starring role in Action Comics (the comic he single-handedly has made a success for all these years), after being denied that feature status for over two years!!!
]

And that's an achievement?  Was it an achievement when he ditched the mullet and got a decent haircut?  Is undoing bad ideas now the same thing as having a good one?

Anyway, I'm just reacting to the news as posted all over the internet.  I freely admit I haven't read the book (in years) and don't plan to.  Maybe it's written wonderfully, but the fact remains Superman cannot have citizenship anywhere, so the whole thing is a non-issue.



Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 04, 2011, 09:57:38 AM
I was trying to give some indication as to why Action Comics 900 would be a noteworthy issue--something deserving of greater comment--beyond the nine page story called "The Incident" written by David Goyer.

I thought it would be condescending, here, to go into a full explanation of the significance of Action Comics and its 900th issue. Great Rao, Aldous, Nightwing could all do a better job of that than I.

So it seemed curious to me that such a significant issue would only be marked because of that one story. Sure, it's gotten a lot of play by bloggers on the internet--but one doesn't expect them to be knowledgeable and considerate. Whereas, I have that expectation of the posters on the Superman through the Ages message board.

Is my trust in this board misplaced?

Granted this wasn't the best celebration of Action Comics 900 that I could have imagined. A text piece about the history of the comic would have been nice. A few guest turns from characters that have been featured in the book's past would have been excellent. But the stories that were in the book were so many and varied in their vision of Superman and his world that I wasn't entirely disappointed in the comic.

I liked a few of the Jerry Siegel and E. Nelso Bridwell style moments in the mag. Fabulous tales of Krypton, encounters with strange aliens, legends of the Legion of house guests. And I do think "The Evolution of the Man of Tomorrow" two page spread by Brian Stellfreeze was pretty darn cool--perhaps something worthy of the Superman through the Ages site (hint hint).


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: nightwing on May 04, 2011, 12:38:13 PM
Quote
Is my trust in this board misplaced?

Depends on what you're trusting it for.

Above, Rao says he bought it, read it and rates it "excellent." DBN seems to have read it and not liked it.  I never read it at all and I'm guessing from the tone of his post that Aldous didn't either, so we're reacting to news pieces and blog posts.

So if you're "trusting" this board to actually buy new issues of Superman and read them, so far you're at about a 25% success rate (although it sounds like Rao ONLY bought the issue because of the headlines).  If you're trusting us to like the issue, that number goes down to 12.5%.  If you're trusting the site to be a cheerleader for DC's having kept the title in production for 900 issues, well it's up to Rao whether he wants to give it its own page (as he did #400), but the evidence suggests a lot of us (or the small group that's still here) just aren't reading the books regardless of the numbering.  Action may have hit #900, but the last 200 or so of those featured a character I didn't care about, and didn't buy.

I think it's possible the reason so much chatter on the internet deals with the (apparently minor but certainly headline-friendly) "citizenship" issue is because a great many people do not read the books.  What they (we) know about the character these days is what makes the headlines.  Twenty years ago, I was shocked at the reaction most of the world had to news of Superman's "death," which was, in a nutshell, "You mean they still print comic books?!!"  Today, I've switched camps to the "great unwashed" where everything I know about comics is what I read in the paper or on a web site.  If the discussions surrounding issue #900 are largely focused on the "citizenship" (non-) issue, I suspect it's for that reason; nobody's reading the books, but everyone's ready to hop on to the "gripe" wagon. 


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 04, 2011, 02:44:03 PM
i think the reason the internet is making a big deal about it (or was before the news of Bin Ladin--at which point this became old news, except on sites specific to comic books) has to do with the nature of the internet and nothing to do with comic books. If we had the internet back in the 70s, a lot of comic book stories would be picked up for third party promotion by the internet, as people fained shock at some action of Howard the Duck or Captain America or Wonder Woman, which only helps to sell more comic books. And such shock would just as quickly be forgotten. Apparently, it's very easy to shock the internet. Shock and pornography seem to be the two main drivers of commerce on the web.

Maybe my choice of words was inexact. I meant that I trust the people on this site to look past all that "shock" and realize that there are other things worthy of attention.

Just to underline these points.

  • 1. Action Comics is the second longest running comic book in continuous publication.

    2. Superman debuted in Action Comics no. 1. And now this comic has hit no. 900. 100 issues more and it will hit 1000. Maybe it's foolish that we humans make a big deal about hundredth and thousandth--but we do and therefore anything hitting 900 is usually cause for celebration.

    3. Superman was the first comic book super-hero and his debut began a flood of other super-heroes. The fortunes of DC and Marvel are virtually built upon Superman.
     
    4. It's amazing that a comic book can reach 900 when so many other comics are set back to no. 1 in order to jump start sales. And Action Comics reached that number the old-fashioned way. There was no clever fooling around with numbers. You can find copies of the other 899 issues, each with their own distinct number.

    5. Superman was stupidly taken out of Action, two years ago. Spoiling his run in the comics (although it's possible an image of Superman appeared in all of the skipped issues--I haven't checked), but at least with no. 900 he returns.

    6. There is a big battle between Luthor and Superman in this issue--which concludes the Luthor arc--while the same story begins a Doomsday arc.  The story has lots of flashbacks in it and features lots of guests. It even features Death of the Endless in it--which used to be a cause for Neil Gaiman to call his lawyers at scien****gy and fair game any writer or editor who dared to do such a thing--and further breaks down the Chinese wall between the DCU and the Vertigo-verse.

    7. The issue features a story by Damon Lindelof--of Lost fame--which is a lovely story worthy of E. Nelson Bridwell.

    8. The issue features an all too brief reprise of the Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes arc which appeared in Action a few years back, by Johns/Frank--in a bit of comedy cameos worthy of Jerry Siegel.

    9. Paul Dini scripts a very short little scene between Superman and a weird alien that is in the tradition of Elliot S! Maggin.

    10. Dick Donner & Dereck Hoffman provide a screenplay for a short Superman film (of the mind) with story boards by Matt Camp. Granted Donner has contributed to Action before, but it's still pretty amazing to have the director of Superman the Movie doing something like this--which indicates he might still have another Superman movie in him.

    11. There's the two page spread by Stellfreeze as mentioned above.

    12. It's a 96 or 100 (depending how you count) page Super-Spectacular.

    13. And there's the story by David Goyer--I guess it's too late to put up spoilers for this story, since the internet has spoiled this story all over the place (showing that the internet has no respect for comic book etiquette)--but frankly the slight turn at the end of the story would have probably gone past me if someone hadn't decided this was the most shocking thing that had ever happened to Superman and then pushed that angle all over the internet and then through traditional media. Goyer has lately garnered fame for co-scripting The Dark Knight movie, but he's written a lot of comic books. This story fits within his usual concerns. It's flawed for a lot of the reasons that Nightwing has given. It's an interesting little idea--worth discussing over a cup of coffee with a friend--but not really a subject that can be discussed by the internet at large, which has all the delicacy of an elephant performing the final scene from Black Swan.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: nightwing on May 04, 2011, 04:11:19 PM
Quote
i think the reason the internet is making a big deal about it (or was before the news of Bin Ladin--at which point this became old news, except on sites specific to comic books) has to do with the nature of the internet and nothing to do with comic books.

I think we're in agreement on that, actually.  My point is that most of the world would have no idea what happened in the book if not for the blogs that mentioned the Goyer tale, and even now all they now is those two panels.  That's to be expected from "mainstream" outlets -- by which I mean non-comics sites -- but it's interesting that the same thing is happening on sites that *do* deal with comics, which again says to me that all most people know about the book is those two panels.  Which in turn means that even people on comics-related sites are not reading Action.

That's just my take, mind you; I have no idea what the sales numbers look like.  For that matter, I have no idea how many comics *bought* these days are actually *read.*

I agree 900 is an impressive number -- I wish they'd let Adventure keep going! -- and it beats starting over every 6 months, for sure.  But as I said, for me the counter stopped advancing a long time ago. 

Quote
5. Superman was stupidly taken out of Action, two years ago. Spoiling his run in the comics (although it's possible an image of Superman appeared in all of the skipped issues--I haven't checked), but at least with no. 900 he returns.

They nearly did it before, when we got just two pages of Superman (or one, when they turned it sideways) in "Action Comics Weekly," so Big Blue could take a back seat to the likes of Chaykin-lite "Blackhawk" and some forgotten nobody in a hockey mask.

I would like to see Stelfreeze do Superman, though.  Maybe I'll pick the issue up if I find myself in an LCS for Free Comic Day (depends on whether there's anything good for my 8- and 6-year-olds).  Going to be hard to get past that cover, though...



Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 04, 2011, 06:04:25 PM
I didn't like the regular cover. I thought it was drab and not fitting for an anniversary issue. Also I think this artist and the artist(s) inside the book have two completely different views on the main story. Mind you I found the main story kind of dull--it's not very active when you have a talking head Luthor vs. the Man of Steel--what's he going to do bore Superman to death with endless yammering on?

I tried to find one or the other of the variant covers--Adam Hughes doing a take on Superman 233 or Alex Ross doing a take on Action no. 1---but in the three stores that I checked they only had the regular cover.

But there is talk of more printings. Maybe one of these will have a better cover.

And since they will want to highlight the "controversy" on the cover of a 2nd or 3rd printing, I have the perfect cover idea for them--based on a common Silver Age theme. . .

In the extreme foreground is a Daily Planet newspaper with a headline that reads: "SUPERMAN SAYS 'NO' TO AMERICA" (another smaller headline reads "Action reaches 900")

In the foreground is Superman, while in the background is an angry mob of citizens. The citizens brandish sticks and throw rotten tomatoes and eggs at the Man of Steel. One person is holding a sign that reads "America Love It Or Leave It" while another sign reads "Superman Get Out!" A few people are waving American flags. Perry White is saying "Great Caesar's Ghost! I never thought I'd see the day!" While a young woman is saying, "You're no American!" and a little boy beside her, wearing a Superman T-shirt and probably her son, is crying while he rips up the current issue of Action Comics.

Superman has his back to the mob of angry citizens, but he's looking over his shoulder, back at them, as he thinks: "Who would have thought (choke) after 900 issues of Action . . . it would all end like this!"

A caption reads: "Is this the end of Superman? Hold onto your hats America, you won't believe the shocking conclusion of this issue's story: 'The Incident!'"


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: BBally81 on May 04, 2011, 06:06:30 PM


  • 5. Superman was stupidly taken out of Action, two years ago. Spoiling his run in the comics (although it's possible an image of Superman appeared in all of the skipped issues--I haven't checked), but at least with no. 900 he returns.



I actually enjoyed the Lex Luthor centric Action Comics, Paul Cornell gave us possibly the best Lex Luthor in the comics after how Geoff Johns made him too much of a alien hating whiner. I had a good feeling about Cornell after reading his run at Marvel with Captain Britain And MI13, possibly the only geniunely good thing to come out of such a mess of an event like Secret Invasion. He also written many Doctor Who stories for both the show and the novelisations.




  • 8. The issue features an all too brief reprise of the Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes arc which appeared in Action a few years back, by Johns/Frank--in a bit of comedy cameos worthy of Jerry Siegel.


Hey, a story that involves Clark having a fun time with the Legion is always good in my book.


Now about the Goyer story itself, there are a lot of people who are really upset about this and saw this as unneccessary and I can't blame them. However there are also a lot of people who did like it and a huge number of them don't come across as "PC liberals", in a way it does make sense why he wants to do it.

Also I'm going to go on limb and say that if it wasn't for the George Reeves TV series, "The American Way" would have possible been seen as a short lived part of the Truth And Justice slogan used for the WWII era Superman and not as iconic as it is today


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 04, 2011, 08:12:21 PM
In over-sized anniversary issues you're apt to get a lot of "unnecessary" stories--especially when you have guest writers, who are using this as their one opportunity to do a novel take on Superman. There are probably bloggers out there who made these kinds of points, but their blogs weren't sexy enough. Only the blogs that shouted loudly about an easy to understand blast against the story could get through the internet filter. And like some messenger RNA this simple message was copied over and over again onto other posts. And with that message blasted into the brain, a lot of people were reading this story with that slant already in mind.

So again I think this says a lot more about the phenomenon of the internet and less about comics--although it is probably affecting how comics are now read.

A poster on another board made a good observation about the internet and that a deliberate negative message about a character serves to revive and solidify the iconic status of the given character in the mind of people who might not have read this character for a long time.

Actually this probably isn't entirely a new thing. When I think about discovering the Sand Superman Saga it was a galvanizing moment that revived my interest in Superman because it played against the traditional image of Superman. For that to work, you had to have the traditional Superman in mind. Curt Swan's art helped with that. So by pushing against the icon, the Saga served to reenforce the icon in my mind.

I'm not so sure that the push back from the internet is such a bad thing for Superman. I seriously doubt that people are going to boycott comics in high numbers. Most people who would be driven away from Superman have already been (I only buy new Superman comics on occasion when I'm really interested in the story). By creating this furor, intentionally or unintentionally, DC gets people to think about what Superman stands for. I doubt that a lot of people have thought about that in a long time.

The question is what DC can do with that. If they had a movie to promote, they could probably use it. It might help to push a few more comic books, but I'm not sure that this internet phenomenon is going to have a pay-off for Superman, unless the producers on the Superman movie are trying to get some more seed money. This might prove to investors that Superman is still an icon with some life in him.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: Great Rao on May 04, 2011, 08:16:56 PM
As far as whether or not there should be a "page" or "section" on STTA devoted to Action Comics 900, I think that's a fine idea, but I don't know if I'll get to it - so submitted material is welcome.  I've actually got a back-log material I'd like to add, which includes Action 900 along with some other modern issues.

I still regularly get the Superman title - I started to pick it up when JMS came on board, and I've been enjoying the storyline.  I also like the new writer who seems to be taking over from him - so far he's incorporated elements from Maggin, Morrison, and many other cool sources.  He clearly knows his Superman lore and likes it.  His stuff is a lot of fun.

I decided not to regularly read Action because I had no interest in a book devoted to Lex Luthor.  But the Doomsday storyline seems enjoyable, so I'll probably continue to get that title too - it comes across to me as a sequel to the old "Death and Return (http://superman.nu/portal/History/DeathAndReturn.php)" arc - I'm not sure how the Cyborg Superman, Eradicator, etc, came back on the scene; but I'm not too worried about that.  Although it's odd to have a Supergirl present who, I'm assuming, isn't the "matrix" Supergirl.

Death did appear in Action 900, but apparently she's been a semi-regular in this latest (ie, just concluded) storyline; so this isn't her first appearance in the title.

The Legion story was great, I like seeing sci-fi elements, Superman's high-power level, and a lot more in the issue was very cool. (viz. India Ink's list above)

I chose the Adam Hughes cover - my store had all three versions at cover price.

And I pretty much agree with everything India Ink has said about the issue in this thread - I didn't reply until now because I didn't have anything to add.





Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 04, 2011, 09:23:46 PM
Yeah, I wasn't really advocating for a whole page devoted to 900 on the Through the Ages site. There's already a lot of other stuff that demands attention. I just thought there were other parts of the comic as worthy of comment as Goyer's story. But that image by Stellfreeze really made me think of this site. Only, if it were me, I would want to drop in some more images of Superman from the first 40 some years of the character, most of the images are devoted to incarnations of Superman in the last 25 years.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: BBally81 on May 04, 2011, 09:50:29 PM

I decided not to regularly read Action because I had no interest in a book devoted to Lex Luthor.


Well, I thought this was among the best Lex Luthor stories. Cornell's Luthor had that DC Animated Clancy Brown Lex Luthor feel to it.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: nightwing on May 05, 2011, 12:08:03 PM
Quote
A poster on another board made a good observation about the internet and that a deliberate negative message about a character serves to revive and solidify the iconic status of the given character in the mind of people who might not have read this character for a long time.

Wanted to throw something else in here, and again this is with the caveat that I'm speaking in my (relatively recent) role as a non-collecting, non-reading member of the unwashed rabble. 

It's worth noting that every "Superman renounces his citizenship" link I found took me to the same blog, and that blog wasn't necessarily judging the move one way or the other; it just focused on it to the exclusion of the rest of the issue's contents.  Possibly this is a result of the "Drudge Factor," that tendency of certain link-collecting sites to seek out potentially controversial headlines and play them up, even if the link back reveals the original article wasn't so controversial at all.

In this sense, there's a certain amount of rabble-rousing involved, and it's interesting to review the factors that make that possible; the most obvious is the highly polarized nature of American politics today, but the other is that Americans can be counted on to have an understanding of, an affinity for, indeed even a sense of ownership about, superheroes, and especially Superman.  People who haven't read a comic book since childhood -- if ever -- nonetheless have an idea of what he's supposed to stand for, and if you assault that, they get their backs up.  Again, they don't read comics and wouldn't whether the character was done to fit their conception of him or not, but tamper with him and they'll raise a fuss.

Quote
I'm not so sure that the push back from the internet is such a bad thing for Superman. I seriously doubt that people are going to boycott comics in high numbers.

Nobody who reads Superman regularly could possibly be more offended by it than they were when he killed three helpless prisoners, grew a Fabio mullet or turned into a poor man's Lightning Lad.  From what you say, if they read the book, they took the scene in context and found it inoffensive, unless they were died-in-the-wool Conservative super-patriots, in which case it's hard to believe they've found anything nourishing in Superman comics for decades.

Non-comics readers are already "boycotting" comics in high numbers just through indifference.  You can't boycott something you never buy, anyway.

As for the rest, those who do buy comics but consider Superman a goody two-shoes, flag-waving boy scout, the controversy may actually help sell books to them.  But then again, maybe not, since I doubt the "flag-waving" part offends them as much as the "goody two-shoes."  I don't imagine Superman-haters avoid him for the politics so much as the lack of kewl disembowelments and decapitations.

Anyway, I haven't really seen a "push back from the internet" (though I haven't spent much time following the story, anyway, so many I missed it).  My take on it is that it went like this:

BLOGGER: "Hey, waitaminnit, did Superman just give up his citizenship?"
DRUDGE: "SUPERMAN RENOUNCES AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP!"
HANDFUL OF DRUDGE FOLLOWERS: "Traitor leftie!  It's Obama's fault!"
REST OF WORLD: "Who cares?  SuperWHO?"

FIVE MINUTES LATER: "Bin Laden's dead!" 

Then ten minutes of cheering followed by demands for proof and roll-out of first draft of conspiracy theories.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: BBally81 on May 06, 2011, 02:20:03 PM
I think Scotty V from the Superman Homepage makes one of the better discussions of the "incident" on his Great Scott! segment for the Speeding Bulletin despite making a small mistake saying that the American Way quote was part of canon from the begining since it was actually first used during WWII and was dropped after the war ended but was brought back and turned into an iconic part of the mythos by the George Reeves TV series in the 50's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ2-tZwV9Rs
(at 06:31 in the video)


I guess I fall in the middle, on one side I can see why many fans hate this or see this move as an unnecessary change to such an iconic part of the character but at the same time I can see why others don't mind this change and that the extreme rage reaction by the very far right is well blown out of proportion especially when they see it as Superman giving up his citizenship because he hates/disagrees with America which they of course wouldn't make that conclusion if they actually read the story (I'm looking at you FOX News :roll:   ) And I think the UN giving him the hononary citizenship isn't canon anymore after Crisis On Infinite Earths however to thos who say that there were no clues of Superman's US citizenship, he did call himself an American citizen in Geoff Johns Superman: Secret Origins.

In the end, DC did say the story isn't canon and NO I don't think this is a good excuse to boycott the comic nor upcoming the Superman movie. Then again, I'm not American and I see Superman as one of the more universal superheroes ever which is why for the most part he's always been my favorite.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 06, 2011, 02:41:29 PM
Of course, since Superman is in reality Clark Kent, and Clark Kent is an American, Superman knows that he's an American. So he would identify himself as such, but he wouldn't be able to prove it to anybody without revealing his other identity.

Now if Clark Kent gave up his citizenship that would be a different story. But I don't think it would grab any headlines. Because people understand that ordinary citizens like Clark Kent are often forced to give up their citizenship and other rights in the normal course of events.

Americans are forced to give up their citizenship all the time when they are trying to find jobs outside the country or when they have other legal problems. Sometimes citizenship is denied Americans against their will.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: nightwing on May 06, 2011, 03:26:13 PM
I know it's conventional wisdom that the "American Way" bit was adopted by the TV show to head off scrutiny from McCarthy-types, but really I never took it that way.  My perception was that "the American Way" meant fair play, honesty and equal treatment under the law.  Which can sound corny and hollow, but at the time it was a bit brave.  The radio show famously exposed the KKK, public service ads in the comics promoted racial and religious tolerance, and if the TV show didn't dive head first into any of that (it was a decade too early for that kind of TV), I still got the "play nice" vibe from George Reeves.

Indeed, if the phrase was entirely motivated by fear and wanting to be seen as "playing along," then the producers would have fired Robert Shayne the moment someone suggested he was a closet Communist.  Instead, they stuck by him.

I don't know the precise moment standing proudly in front of a flag became a liability, but it's worth noting that Superman was never, to my memory anyway, an agent of the US government.  The comics studiously avoided international politics, to my knowledge, beyond caricatures of Kruschev or Castro, and never had Superman say, cleaning up Korea or Vietnam.  A President may have asked him to save the Earth, or promote physical fitness, but they never asked him to remove a dictator, or melt Russia's ICBM's from orbit.  Frank Miller did a lot to cement the notion of Superman as a government "lap dog," but honestly he based that on almost nothing.

The really curious part is that the first time Superman does start "working for" the government -- again, to my knowledge -- is in the 80s, when he invades Qurac (or whatever it was).  Considering sentiment was already turning against his (heretofore unearned) "government lackey" image at that point, that always seemed like a dumb move, to me.

Anyway, the LA Times has chipped in to the debate with this article, which suggests -- I have to assume jokingly -- that Superman's renunciation of his citizenship inspired the killing of bin Laden!

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-dorfman-superman-20110506,0,4184100.story?track=rss (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-dorfman-superman-20110506,0,4184100.story?track=rss)



Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: DBN on May 07, 2011, 02:37:40 AM
The really curious part is that the first time Superman does start "working for" the government -- again, to my knowledge -- is in the 80s, when he invades Qurac (or whatever it was).  Considering sentiment was already turning against his (heretofore unearned) "government lackey" image at that point, that always seemed like a dumb move, to me.





The story took place in Adventures #427-428 (428 also serving as the introduction of Bibbo). Superman wasn't working for the government in any way, shape, or form. He destroyed Qurac's military after Qaraci terrorists attacked Metropolis. His actions led to the nutball dictator being deposed and later arrested and brought to the US for trial.

The Superman of the '80s didn't have a problem violating international law in order to do what he believed was right. What does the Superman of 2011 do after non-violent protestors are slaughtered? He flies in country the next day, stands there like a bump on a log, and ultimately accomplishes nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Then again, this is the same idiot that allowed Zod to come to rule in New Krypton and let General Ros...err Lane destroy the planet. That's how Superman is portrayed now: as a weak-willed, ineffectual, imbecile. Par the course, really.

Geez, I long for the days of the Byrne Superman now. At least that Superman was competent.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: nightwing on May 07, 2011, 07:19:59 AM
Aha, thanks for the correction, DBN.  Like nearly all stories from that time period (except "Krimson Kryptonite" and "Time After Time") I was underwhelmed by this one and forgot most of the details.  All I really remember is that it was drawn well, that the dictator was obviously Saddam and that the cover had Supes with...I'm thinking a jet or a flag, or both...just enough random, half-recalled images for my mind to put it together as "government-sanctioned action."  I suppose I could have straightened it out by re-reading the story, but frankly I like it better where it is, in a polybag in a box in a closet in a room I don't use.

What baffles me is how DC can still offer up stories built around real-world events when they long ago divorced the DCU from the real world's timeline or reality.  In a world where whole countries have been wiped off the map (Montevideo or whatever they called it) and Lex Luthor was president of the US, why would *anything* be happening in the same way it is here?  If they wanted to make commentaries on real-world events, they shouldn't have left the real world behind years ago.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: Great Rao on May 09, 2011, 11:45:09 AM
In the end, DC did say the story isn't canon <...>

Where did DC say this?  Anyone wants to read it, here it is

(http://superman.nu/tales5/the_incident/bnr.jpg) (http://superman.nu/tales5/superman-renounces-u-s-citizenship/)


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: Great Rao on May 09, 2011, 04:11:14 PM
But that image by Stellfreeze really made me think of this site.

I don't know, I don't really see any similarity.

(http://superman.nu/FanArt/superbanner2.gif) (http://superman.nu/FanArt/banners.php)

(http://superman.nu/tales5/the_incident/evolution-thumb.jpg) (http://superman.nu/tales5/the_incident/evolution_of_the_man_of_tomorrow.php)

(http://superman.nu/FanArt/wall-2.gif) (http://superman.nu/FanArt/art2.php)

http://superman.nu/Costumes/S.php



Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: BBally81 on May 09, 2011, 06:25:25 PM

Where did DC say this?

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/luffycapri/news/?a=36606

Will you include the Legion story from Action 900?


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 09, 2011, 07:42:39 PM
Thanks for putting those up, GR.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: carmine on May 09, 2011, 09:04:56 PM
I liked that Stellfreeze drawing...but what? No Wayne Boring version??? come on.

i don't expect EVERY version but wayne was a big superman artist

bigger then Jim Lee (I think thats suppose to be jim lee anyways)

Anyways
as far as the citizenship story goes...it was boring and poorly written and made no sense. So since it made no sense inside the story I can only assume it was the writer trying to make some silly point.
People claim it doesnt count...it was only 9 pages (the best superman stories are NINE PAGES though)
if its suppose to be a "what if" they END it right when it would be interesting. the "what if" takes place at the end of the story?
it would be like Aunt May getting bitten by a radioactive spider instead of pete but it doesn't happen until the last page and the previous 30 pages was just pete and auntie talking and talking and talking




Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: nightwing on May 09, 2011, 09:22:21 PM
Yes, thanks for posting the story, GR.  Obviously people are missing the whole point of it, but I still maintain that (1) Superman has no citizenship to renounce and (2) any attempts to put Superman in the real world are ill-advised and sure to fail.  As it does here.

The Stelfreeze image is nice, but not a "Stelfreeze Superman" so much as a "Stelfreeze aping Shuster, Swan, Byrne, Grummet, Lee and Frank Superman," which wouldn't have been worth my money.  Two things come to mind viewing it, though: first, isn't it weird to see a "history of Superman" image where Byrne's version is so close to the beginning (makes me feel OLLLLLD) and second, in "evolution" charts, isn't the caveman supposed to come at the beginning, not the middle?

BTW, I did make it to FCBD but forgot to look for the book.  Too much excitement as the kds grabbed up Gottfredson Mickey Mouse, Barks Uncle Scrooge and assorted other goodies.  For my part, I got the "Mis-Adventures of Adam West," which was...interesting, anyway, but the flip side was a literally hellish thing that looked like Hieronymus Bosch meets George Romero, so it went in the garbage (maybe a first for me).  On the up side, we're supposed to be getting an 8-inch Adam West action figure out of this series, so keep your eyes peeled.

The kids also got free sketches from a fun artist named Jamie Cosley (http://www.jamiecosley.com): a Spidey and and Iron Man (darned kids and their Marvel!).  My 2-year-old daughter refused to ask for a sketch and contented herself with flirting with the artist.  Gotta keep an eye on that girl; comic book artists are a seedy lot!


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: Great Rao on May 09, 2011, 11:15:27 PM

Where did DC say this?

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/luffycapri/news/?a=36606

I don't quite see how DC's 'official' statement of "This short story is just that, it will not be followed up upon. Superman will remain as American as Apple pie" equates to a decree of "non-canonical" or "what-if" status, as the article claims.  I mean, does Apple pie even have U.S. citizenship?  Sounds like a meaningless statement intended to appease the nattering nabobs.

Quote
Will you include the Legion story from Action 900?

Dunno yet.

(http://superman.nu/tales5/superman-renounces-u-s-citizenship/brave.jpg) (http://superman.nu/tales5/superman-renounces-u-s-citizenship/index.php?page=9)


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: India Ink on May 10, 2011, 03:16:29 PM
I regard "The Incident" as being like that one episode of the West Wing where they tried to address 9/11. It didn't really fit with the rest of the show, and it's probably best not to try to make sense of it.

If you need to make sense of it then I suggest it was a prank that Obama and Superman hatched up between them to play on Gabriel Wright.

Two seconds after the end of this, Barack comes out from behind the trees laughing. At first Garbriel is miffed, but then he joins in the laughter. It was all in good fun.


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: BBally81 on May 12, 2011, 11:26:41 PM


I don't quite see how DC's 'official' statement of "This short story is just that, it will not be followed up upon. Superman will remain as American as Apple pie" equates to a decree of "non-canonical" or "what-if" status, as the article claims.  I mean, does Apple pie even have U.S. citizenship?  Sounds like a meaningless statement intended to appease the nattering nabobs.




For what's its worth, in the end of Superman 711, Superman basically makes a speech on why the America ideal is special.

(http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/05/superman.jpg)


Title: Re: Superman is giving up his American citizenship .. ?
Post by: Johnny Nevada on May 21, 2011, 01:54:14 PM
Interesting arguments from all...

Re: citizenship: I recall the pre-Crisis story where Supes was giving honorary citizenship in all member UN nations. Seems pre-Crisis he was treated as being American (per two stories about someone from the IRS claiming he owes back taxes), though also (as the UN story and countless others note) also being the world's hero. Post-Crisis, he's also been treated as American/the world's hero, though Byrne seemed to play up the "I'm an American" aspects to me. I assume the "citizenship in all UN member countries" isn't canonical anymore...

While obviously Clark Kent's still a citizen, what I kept thinking of is that Superman usually steers clear of getting involved in such political situations, particularly real-world ones, unless absolutely forced to (dealing with Nazis on the homefront in WWII-era stories, say, but not single-handedly ending Vietnam/the War in Iraq/etc., that story about "Qurac" aside). Part of the general "Superman's here to help, but humanity also needs to solve its own problems" "Prime Directive"-like stance, I figured (as well as a real-life way for DC to keep its characters somewhat-neutral)...

Re: Action #900: I wrote on my blog about the previous anniversary issues: http://www.anthonynotes.com/2011/04/27/action-comics-900-released-today-plus-previous-anniversary-issues/ (http://www.anthonynotes.com/2011/04/27/action-comics-900-released-today-plus-previous-anniversary-issues/)