Birthright #5 Page 06

[RedSunOfKrypton]

Heh, true.

[Captain Kal]

Agreed, guys.

I've always found it hypocritical that the anti-Superman guys -- mostly Marvelites -- like to say Pre Crisis Superman's high power-levels were bad for stories, but then they didn't bat an eye at the Hulk's unlimited, geometrically increasing might, the Human Torch's nova-level blasts, the Silver Surfer's cosmic level powers, or Thor's similar feats.  High power-levels mean bad stories for Superman but somehow they mean good stories for their faves.  Hypocrisy!

Good writing is what makes the character work or not, and that's not dependent on power-level.  Batman with no powers if one of the top sellers at DC.  Moore proved with both the real SA/BA Superman and Supreme that Pre Crisis Superman power-levels can be written properly in good stories.

All depowering Superman buys the writers is letting any hack *coughByrnecough* write -- or try to write -- the Last Son of Krypton.

[ManSinha]

High power-levels mean bad stories for Superman but somehow they mean good stories for their faves.

Now is there a way of taking that, inverting the letters and branding it onto the foreheads of the Powers To Be at DC?

[RedSunOfKrypton]

Well, let's see, we'll need some lye and maybe a large branding iron, oh and some silk panties...cuz they're just so soft

[forgottenhero]

If I may jump in here for a moment and revive this lapsed thread...

There are may aspects of Byrne's Superman that I dislike. But his lesser powers aren't one of them.  If Superman is virtually omnimpotent then he makes all other superheroes redundant. Particularly if he can approach, and even surpass, the speed of light -- what's the point of the Flash, then? I never liked the pre-1986 Superman's ability to travel through time under his own power. That's just too much.

Had Byrne simply taken Superman circa 1943 -- the last year before his powers really got out of hand, I think -- and transplanted him into the 1980s, everything would've been fine.  Unfortunately, Byrne felt the need to alter too much (the Krypton that deserved to die, Clark Kent the GQ model, etc.).

[SteamTeck]

Hi new here and I have to agree. I prefer the less omnipotent Superman. He should still be the badest cat in the valley But  at a more comprehensable level. I prefer a superman that isn't so tough that Terran forces can't harm him. Surviving near contact nukes or intersteller travel is a bit much for me. If he can fly unaided to the stars why doesn't go explore the universe. I just wish the character would be protrayed in a more heroic light and the modern stories weren't so grim and depressing
     I actually enjoyed Bryne's early run although his legacy is a disaster. I vastly prefer his stuff to some things that have come after, for example the current "For Tomorrow" story arc.
     I think the iron age for Supes will end not if  his power is increased but when the gritty naturalism and darkness that is pretended to be realism and "relevance" ( I REALLY hate that word applies to comics) ends

[Captain Kal]

With all due respect, guys, you're mixing eras here.  The Flash wasn't limited to mere lightspeed Pre Crisis as anybody with true super-speed tended to be FTL most esp. the Flash and Superman.  While who was faster was more debatable Pre Crisis, it was more often shown that Barry had the edge at least for reaction time.  For outright speed, they were so close it was almost negligible.  Schwartz once tried to resolve it by saying Barry was faster for sprints but over long hauls like a million miles, Kal took it.  Barry and Kal operated at least at ten times lightspeed back then and arguably much faster since they both raced to the edge of the galaxy back then and back in a week which is over two million times lightspeed.

Heck, any superfast guy like Mon-El or Barry/Flash could time travel so don't knock Pre Crisis Superman for that ability since time travel was seemingly as common as walking to the corner store back then.  Anyway, fans who know those stories also know DC put strict limitations on time travel in that characters couldn't affect history, and only the most extenuating circumstances and plot devices would ever bend that.  The Anti-Monitor at the beginning of Time, or a race across time between the Flash and Superman where only that instant separating the Beginning of Time from the End of Time (time is a closed circular loop in the PC DCU) could allow historical change.  Or an outsider to the timeline like Vandal Savage from Earth-2 could alter Earth-1's timeline.

Also, for any era of the Flash, the principal character be he Jay/Barry/Wally, was always more adept at super-speed stunts.  Dimension travel and vibration tricks were the primary advantages but there were others.  Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Superman, Mon-El, Ultra Boy and any other non-Flash guys tended to just travel fast and the odd time travel incident.  Most of the speed stunts were the domain of the Flashes.

All the SA/BA heroes and villains operated in this vast power-range.  When Superman duked it out with an opponent the baddie was often in his league and sometimes higher.  Post Crisis, the power-levels despite the depowering have left much of Byrned Superman's rogues a bit of a joke.

If you'd actually read the SA/BA stories, then you'd know all those guys back then were uber-powerful or fast.  That was DC back then, not Superman only.

[forgottenhero]

I have read Silver Age and Bronze Age DC titles, Cap. Hell, Elliot S! Maggin is my favorite Superman writer. I just never liked Superman (or Mon-El, or even the Flashes) being able to to travel through time under his own power. It strained my suspension of disbelief. Even when I was a pre-teen.

The problems with Byrne's Superman have to do with characterization and  "major philosophical inversion" and the like (and screwing up the Legion), not with depowering.

All the SA/BA heroes and villains operated in this vast power-range.  When Superman duked it out with an opponent the baddie was often in his league and sometimes higher.  Post Crisis, the power-levels despite the depowering have left much of Byrned Superman's rogues a bit of a joke.

If you'd actually read the SA/BA stories, then you'd know all those guys back then were uber-powerful or fast.  That was DC back then, not Superman only.