Here's my response to my countryman,Rugal,who's playing devil's advocate and "Pilosopong Tacio" :twisted:
Read the responses below: :bounce:
When Siegel and Shuster created superman, they didn't think of all these sci-fi element add-ons except for superman himself.. he wasn't even an "american hero" for crying out loud, he was the outlet of two jewish artists seeking for a personal avenger. so no superboy etc. no kandor, no supergirl.. etc.
My point is that Superman is considered a part of modern folklore,despite the fact that he sprang from the brows of Shuster and Siegel. Many was the time when an idea or invention was simply conceived by its creator to fill a need. When that invention becomes a success,it becomes a necessity not a luxury. Creations also change to suit the needs of the public or consumers involved.
Take the telephone which was invented in the 20th century. It was a luxury when
it was invented. A hundred years later,calling people on the phone can be made with portable models,like the cell phone. Now a luxury becomes a necessity,and a basic idea was modified to suit the changing times.
A popular figure (read fictitious) undergoes various stages of development. In modern parlance,it's like
using WINDOWS. Using that analogy,Superman (and WINDOWS for that matter)
had to change to suit the needs of its viewers. Are you still using the prototype of WINDOWS? You maybe using 95,98 or XP,but not its earlier version.
Which brings me to the point of the pre-crisis Superman killing 5 times:
you shot yourself in the foot;those stories were depicted in the earlier versions
and the editorial changes about him having a code of ethics (and NOT killing anyone) is akin to changing browsers from the WINDOWS prototype to the newer versions.
Besides,since Supes was becoming a role model,those changes were in order. The Superman that killed was the WINDOWS prototype,the Silver age Supes and even the Bronze age Supes never kilt anybody.
So bringing up the matter of Supes killing 5 times in his earlier days is just like complaining that WINDOWS 3.1 and the later versions are alike,to stretch an analogy.
We are comparing different versions of Supes,and the first one wuz "bad". :wink:
So making that accusation about the pre-crisis Supes killing 5 men is pointless.
It's like saying All men are mortal,Socrates was a mortal,therefore all men are Socrates. :lol:
The question which should be asked is,"Which version killed his enemies without remorse?" :?:
Remember that Batman also killed a few villains in his early days in TEC. He even used a gun. :!:
Only in the last Bronze age tale,"Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow"
was the only time he killed a villain,and even that was an imaginary tale. :idea:
I agree with the supergirl part though
I disagree with the Kents being alive is a bad move.
case in point, TOO MANY heroes relies on a tragic origin to "justify" responsibility, if anyone can use "weak willed always being mind controlled" is an over-used cliche, much more is this.. which is almost always the alpha of a super-hero, besides Clark's Biological parents were dead either and the justification that
The El's death = loss of home
kent's death = Loss of parents
is sheer redundance wrapped up in an excuse. Clark simply easily could mourn for his parents AND home krypton (whether he liked it cold or not) in a single package, instead the difference about the nature of his biological and adopted parents but with the same "wanting welfare for their son" is more complex, if somehow the "real world" got a crisis and the pre-crisis became the post and vice versa.. who would you side with??
I'm sorry,I lost your line of thought...in case you don't remember,Supes' loss of both parents has been copied in one form or another ad nauseam by its competitors.
Let's take Spider-Man for example: the death of his uncle Ben was the turning point in his life,and that has been replayed to death even in the Spider-Man Ultimate comic book.
A similar circumstance would be how Matt Murdock got started in crimefighting:his father,the boxer Jack Murdock,was shot to death by criminals because he refused to take a dive. Where did Stan Lee get those ideas from? The Batman saga,of course. Between Spidey and DD,my money's on DD (especially the Miller version)
any day. His struggles are more tragic compared to Spidey's.
I personally prefer the times when Supes lost his home and then his foster parents.
Reasons:
1) Superman wa s and still is an alien,despite adopting Earth as his home planet.
The destruction of Krypton emphasized his unearthly origins,it gives us a background of how he got his great powers.
Being an alien also denotes a certain dichotomy which echoes the story of Christ,where He was sent to Earth and conceived by a virgin (which is taught in cathecism in the Philippines and other Christian countries)
Therein lies the paradox;he (Superman) is among us,but he is not like us.
And Kal lives and stays in earth,living like an earthman,but he knows his otherworldly origins. It is this paradox which is the core of the previous Supes.
Unfortunately,John Byrne dispensed with that aspect and made Supes reject his Kryptonian heritage...only in the last 3 years did DC correct that error,courtesy of Jeph Loeb and company in the Return to Krypton saga.
I guess we have been too jaded with Supes origin that we fail to see how creative and fascinating it was as depicted by his own creators,Siegel and Shuster.
Byrne had rejected Kal's Kryptonian heritage completely...so even if Supergirl and Krypto and the Kandorians were not around,his version still stinks.
2) Even in real life,the individuals who wrought outstanding accomplishments
for mankind were orphans or illigitimate children or when tragedy strikes them which makes these individuals act to compensate for such losses. For example,Leonardo da Vinci was the illigitimate child of an Italian noble and a serving wench. On the fictional side,Tarzan of the apes was an orphan,his foster mother (an ape!!! compare that to the Kents,bub) was killed in a hunting expedition by a lone African warrior. Hercules was the phony son of Zues and Alcmene,and he too became a heroic figure...I'll bet they are just as boring...hmm? :twisted:
Powerwise, Superman sold poorly mostly at the mid-eighties (Marvel's more "Relatable" heroes) brought this about too.. also he got too powerful to be really interesting anymore.
heck if pre-crisis superman made one little mistake why not just travel back in time and undo it.. why doesn't he just go back in time to save Luthor and his experiment before they could be arch enemies?
It's called the power of history,bub...wat's dun cannot be undone... :!:
Tell you what,if you had the power to go back in time,would you be able to correct your mistakes? I'll betcha you would make the same boners again. :idea:
The future,however,is subject to change,so it all depends on choices that were made in the present...and experiences from the past.
Remember that those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
In the language of my home country,"Ang hindi lumilingon sa kanyang pinag-galingan ay hindi makaka-abot sa kanyang pinag-harapan". (same idea,different language)
I agree with his less emotional compunctions.. But He shouldn't be perfect either he seems like a Righteous zombie who is an example to look up to but very unreachable?
Is he a zombie? I don't think so? If you had a lot of awesome powers,wouldn't you think of the consequences of your actions?
You would have to weigh each outcome that would derive the best moral benefit. Superman had that kind of mind and that kind of morality.
Do not mistake a bore for a man who masters himself. The man with self-control can conquer most,if not all tradgedies and problems.
The man's got self-control,and he ain't boring. Try sticking with Spidey in real life,and let's see whose company (especially conversational company) will be boring. Sorry,Wayne,we're not talking about you. You can rest easy.
Remember Newton's law.
And the biblical injuction,to whom MUCH is given,much is expected,much is required. And that includes powers and responsibility (to paraphrase a neurotic webhead).
the reason why Spider-man outsold superman in most of his years is because Spider-man also sets an example of goodness and although he is more emotionally vulnerable than the post-crisis superman, He has one thing Superman NEVER EVER HAD.. "relatability" the troubles of supes battling supervillains, or being alone despite what pales in comparison to spider-man's everyday troubles that are a reflection of real life, in one way spider-man's conflicts are modified and modernized version of siegel and shuster's conflicts.
Aha...you do admit the influence of Siegel and Shuster on Spidey!
:lol:
Three things to remember...
one,he's an alien with awesome powers
two,he chose to live among us despite his powers,that is already a sign of humility,which echoes the Messiah theme in Christianity,disguising himself as Clark Kent to maintain a level of anonymity and assume a level of humanity.
If you can connect at that level,you won't have difficulty identifying with him.
three,the loss of both parents makes him a tragic figure,and the "fact" that he cannot marry Lois or Lana (in da old days,pare)
Even if he had the bottle city of Kandor,Supergirl,Krypto,he still made choices alone. Even if the cards are stacked in his favor,he will be misunderstood by his the Kandorians (because he fails for the nth time to enlarge the bottle city) and the Earthmen because too much is expected of him. These aspects were little exploited,I admit,but it could have made the 80's Superman more interesting.
Giving him everyday problems in his Kent identity compared to Spidey would have
made him more human,I guess. But since he is of 2 natures,it was a writer's nightmare...it could be done. Just a little more creative thinking was needed,and more funding for better artists and writers which DC did not do for Supes' titles.
I still say that the pwerful Supes can be a figure you can empathize with,with some changes made in his Kent identity. Case in point...when Mark Waid took the writng chores of the Flash for 5 wonderful years,he slowly introduced members of the Flash family into the fold,from Jay Garrick to Johnny and Jessie Quick to Impulse
to the Zen Master of Speed (oops,forgot his name)
Hope you didn't miss that run,it was an excellent example of how the Silver age heroes could be upgraded without being ret-conned.
Captain America flourished under Mark Waid's pen...and he even emphasized his patriotic qualities more. If there ever was a straight man in Marvel's universe,it was Cap...but Mark Waid made him interesting.
So I hope that answers your question,or complaint,Rugal...Supes can be relevant,we need writers like Waid,Morrison,Bates,Moore,McCloud,Maggin et al to rev him up. He doesn't need a ret-con,he needs a tune-up,with the right group of writers,and an great team of artists.He can be a hero for all...unfortunately,DC seems to hate the Silver age Superman. (I hope you don't feel the same way too)
In the 80's Supes was outmoded and outsold by the webswinger,baby (think Austin
Powers) because of hackneyed rehashed plotlines,and of course,his cast of characters was streamlined then. Over-using Curt Swan coupled with poor inkers and colorists added to the poor sales of the books. Any Marvel comic in that era had better artists and inkers (but not necessarily writers). I think DC was scrimping on talents that time and they did not have the fantastic rapport that Mort Weisinger had with the readers in Superman's Silver age days.
The stories by
But hence Spidey has to pay bills, have costume problems, get a job the hard way, share his thoughts in a manner that's very simillar to the way people would do" and with superman sure he's got all these "mythos, and maggins" and stuff but only the die-hard fan can identify with that and not the casual reading market.
I find it very hard to identify with a babbling neurotic who whines while he fights
that is especially true of Spidey,and the mutants. If I want jokes form neurotic people I want to listen to Woody Allen instead.
Despite their heroic qualities,they became heroes by accident,if you review their origins. Batman,Supes,Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) etc were heroes by choice,they had greatness and responsibility thrust upon them,but they took those burdens willingly. Even Thor,a personal favorite of mine,was not exempt from that trap in the Stan Lee days. Walt Simonson elevated Thor to heroic levels,and the current writer (DC drop-out Dan Jurgens) still has not matched that level,despite teaming up with great artists like John Romita Jr.,Andy Kubert and Tom Rainey.
As for the old Supes,I prefer him to Spidey because he has his share of outlandish stories (example the Bizarro series and some of the imaginary tales)
That's what I can say in defense of the Silver Age Supes. :wink:
You can roll up your eyes again till they drop :shock: if you don't know that a Filipino is writing this e-mail. (Only Pinoys can make such ridiculous lines like favorite nemesis,pare)
What does your Nippongo greeting mean? Speaka da inglish,man...we're not otakus. :lol:
Peace,man...
Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM