superman.nuMary Immaculate of Lourdes NewtonHAPPY MIRACLE MONDAY!Holliston School Committeefacebook    
  •   forum   •   HAPPY MIRACLE MONDAY: "THE MIRACLE!" •   fortress   •  
THE  MIRACLE MONDAY DINNER    ABOUT MIRACLE MONDAY    MIRACLE MONDAY: THE NOVEL   READ THE NOVEL   2017 EDITION
Superman Through the Ages! Forum
News: Superman Through the Ages! now located at theAges.superman.nu
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 20, 2024, 01:57:43 PM


Login with username, password and session length


Poll
Question: Should Superman kill?  (Voting closed: March 04, 2003, 09:21:33 PM)
If he has NO other choice. - 5 (22.7%)
If it will save more lives. - 2 (9.1%)
If it's the only way to win. - 0 (0%)
Never ever no matter what. - 15 (68.2%)
Total Voters: 22

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Should superman kill? Should he intefere in politics?  (Read 18046 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Super Monkey
Super
League of Supermen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3435



WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2003, 04:18:59 AM »

The Pre-Crisis Superman was so powerful that he didn't need to kill anyone for any reason. He was also much smarter (a million times over) than the current Superman and sloved many problems without even throwing a single punch.
Logged

"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
- Elliot S! Maggin
jasonred
Superman Fan
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13


WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2003, 07:17:14 AM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
I'm going to have to join the others here and write in a "NO" vote.
The point is they do it because they have no other options.  Superman has vowed to himself that he will always find an option (and with all his powers, he usually can).  


Notice the word usually. But, yeah, as people point out, Superman has a lot of options open to him. Though, lately, Supes seems to limit himself to hitting things for the most part. And not very effectively or economically, since he's probably 100 times stronger than Mongul or Mongal, and has a handful with them anyhow. (Supes had comparable strength even without a decent source of solar energy, and couldn't fly!) And nonetheless ends up tearing up the city to defeat them. Even Krypto comatised Mongul in one bite...
The 3 evil kryptonians raised a valid point though, that his enemies ALWAYS seem to come back and cause more chaos... no matter how brilliant his solution to deal with them. Though in the picture, I was wondering if he was killing them with Kryptonite, or just fooling them and actually using the Green Lantern Battery on them... :}


Oh, and it seems that I can't change the poll now that people have actually voted on it. AND I found out what went wrong with the options... you have to "add the option" for the last option too, it doesn't auto include it. Weird. That means you could have a poll with no options? Anyhow, I originally had a option saying, "Never, ever, even lives are endangered!" I was in fact thinking of making it like, "not even if he lost his powers, a world depended on him, and there was no other choice!", but that was too biased, even for me...
Logged
valdemar
Superman Family
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 139


... and who, disguised as...


« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2003, 11:46:24 AM »

Quote
"Never, ever, even lives are endangered!" I was in fact thinking of making it like, "not even if he lost his powers, a world depended on him, and there was no other choice!"


I like it!  I cast my vote for that last one.  These are exactly the kinds of stories I enjoy reading, and Weisinger would have him find a clever surprise solution even if we didn't think there was any way out.

Maybe we should start a new poll?
Logged

"It is not too far fetched to predict that some day our very own planet may be peopled entirely by SUPERMEN!"
- Jerry Siegel, Superman #1
nightwing
Defender of Kandor
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1627


Semper Vigilans


WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2003, 02:16:21 PM »

Quote
nightwing, you say America has no interest in ruling the world? heh heh... patriotic, aren't you? The truth is, America is too smart to want to actually conquer the world and have to be responsible for everything... no. America uses it's Economic and military power to get it's way, and get richer. Check out foreign trade policies sometime... America is an economic bully on an international scale. Military power, America makes the most fuss when smaller nations, even non-hostile ones, start researching new weaponry, or even old weaponry, like nuclear and poison gas and bio weapons. But you can bet your tax dollars are being spent on lots of the above, America just don't allow smaller nations to do it. So...


Am I patriotic?  I like to think so, in the best possible sense.  I'm very glad I live in a country where people of many races, religions and outlooks live together, for the most part, in peace.  That is NOT something you could have said about Afghanistan under the Taliban, in Iraq if you're unlucky enough to be a Kurd, or even in France if you're a Muslim living in the slums with no representation in the government.

I think the word "patriotism" has unfortunately become interchangeable with "jingoism" for too many people.  I do not believe in "my country right or wrong" and I'm certainly not proud of all the policies of administrations past and present with regards to international and internal affairs.  But the fact that I can write that and not worry about the secret police knocking down my door is wonderful, and exceedingly rare.  I may not agree with the anti-war protesters in the streets right now, but by gum I respect their right to protest, and with all the heated rhetoric flying around right now we should all stop and give thanks that we can even have such debates without fear of retribution from the government.

To other matters: whether America is a "bully" depends on how you define "America."  I like to think of America as the citizenry, not the government.  The worst I would accuse most Americans of -- and believe me, it's bad enough! -- is being uninformed and too often indifferent to what their government is doing.  I like to think a majority of people in this country, regardless of their differences on assorted "hot button" issues, are united in their commitment to democratic principles, and in their desire to "live and let live" as a matter of foreign policy.  Unfortunately they are also, as you say, pretty materialistic...and as a result, willing to turn a blind eye to whatever the government does abroad, as long as it keeps that money coming in.

Quote
In mongul's case, we were dealing with someone who killed every day of his life. And who enjoyed it. And showed no remorse after being defeated, in fact more driven to slaughter than ever. Still... I guess there is SOME truth in the "future possible crimes" thing, but...


Interestingly, John Byrne (of all people) dealt with this kind of issue in a Fantastic Four storyline.  Galactus attacks the Earth for the umpeenth time and ends up near death.  Reed Richards nurses him back to health and is later put on trial by assorted races from all over the Universe...in their eyes, he has become an accessory to genocide.  Watching him explain himself was fascinating.  This to me was the kind of story Byrne should have been writing for Superman.


Quote
As for the wiping out of planets and living with himself, that's my point exactly. To Superman, it's not about the result of his actions, it's his own peace of mind. If he had killed Mongul with his bare hands, he would have the memories plague him for the rest of his life. As it is, he more or less has forgotten the fact that mongul killing millions had anything to do with him. Or ignores the connection on purpose. "See, it has nothing to do with Superme, I'm still pure!"



I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.  I can't accept that Superman is responsible for another being's crimes just because he refuses to commit one himself.  Let's not forget here that Superman enjoys no official standing as a law officer.  He is certainly not "licensed to kill."  The SWAT team may have legal clearance to use deadly force, but as citizens, you and I and Superman do not, however right we may think our cause.  (Okay, we may be exonerated for using deadly force if we or those around us are in immediate danger.  But we can't kill someone because he's threatening someone down the street or across town, and certainly not because he "looks like a troublemaker" to us).  Superman has made the personal decision not to kill even to save his own life, and he has no right to kill on any other grounds.  And as we have seen in every incarnation of the character, Superman does not consider himself above the law just because he's more powerful than the mortals who made them.  I imagine he would have a hard time appointing himself judge, jury and executioner on no authority but his own.  As well he should.


Quote
On the other hand, I have to disagree with lastkryptonianhere. I don't like the idea of killing used as a punishment. I see it more as a regretable action, but one that will prevent worse things in the future. I don't think Superman chose death by kryptonite because they deserved it, it was more because they pointed out to him that they WOULD somehow find a way to escape whatever jail or thing he put them in, and would destroy everything. Simply put, he didn't kill out of revenge or emotion or whatever, he killed cause he had NO CHOICE. This is what I'm trying to point out here. No matter how powerful you are, sometimes there's not that many options open to you.


It should be remembered that as Byrne constructed the story, Superman would have killed these guys just by leaving them behind.  Through their own actions they had destroyed all life on the alternate Earth, and even ripped away the atmosphere.  If Supes had simply left, they would likely have starved to death long before they could have figured out a way to restore their powers (something that was patently impossible anyway, under the rules of Gold Kryptonite).  Pulling out the lethal Green K was about as "necessary" as shooting a drowning man.


Quote
As for terrorism... hmm, personally, I don't think killing terrorists is much of a deterrent in some cases. I mean, they're suicide bombers, they plan to go out in gory painful deaths. I really don't think that lethal injections are worse, but what do I know, I'm not a terrorist. Now, torturing them, that might inflict more than what they're willing to deal with, but I have to say that I REALLY don't approve of torture for any reason.


Well, if they're planning to die anyway then let's make sure they do it alone, and not with 3000 other people who had no intention of doing so.  No, I don't think killing them is a "deterrent" in the sense that other terrorists will suddenly think, "Hey, wait a minute, I could get killed doing this!"  But when you've got a mad dog loose do you waste time threatening it with a beating, or do you just shoot it?  The best we can hope for is to show terrorists that we will not take their crap lying down.  For too many years we let them get away with things like the '93 WTC bombing, attacks on US and foreign embassies, and on our servicemen abroad, with only token reponses from us.  We need to let them know that they've woken a sleeping lion, and that every bomb they set off will be answered by 100 from us.

Does that contradict how I said Superman should behave?  Yep. But then I aint' Superman.  :wink:
Logged

This looks like a job for...
Great Rao
Administrator
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1897



WWW
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2003, 11:22:48 PM »

Quote from: "jasonred"

Oh, and it seems that I can't change the poll now that people have actually voted on it.


I've added a "Never" option to the poll.

Time to get out the vote :-)

S!
Logged

"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
Rugal 3:16
Last Son of Krypton
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 341



« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2003, 12:25:40 AM »

Cool
I'll reply just for the FUN of it.

[ quote="nightwing"]I'm going to have to join the others here and write in a "NO" vote.

All this talk recently about the UN has revealed the new shape of the world: we're no longer looking so much at a group of superpowers, but rather one hyperpower with the potential to do whatever it wants.  Thanfully America (at least rank and file Americans) have never been comfortable with the idea of trying to rule the world, but lets face it, if certain other nations had as much power as we do, they'd have crushed us under their boots long ago. [/quote]

sorry but the whole world isn't as pessimistic as this, you view america as someone who's responsoble enough to not topple others, what makes you think other countries can't do the same (which is what they're probably doing right now).

Quote

Like America, Superman is in the position of being more powerful than anyone around him.  And also like our nation, he faces some hard questions: on the one hand, how can you despise the cruelty of foreign governments but not lift a hand to stop them?  On the other hand, once you remove one foreign leader by force, where do you stop?  And in trying to rid the world of what you see as bullies, at some point don't you just become the biggest bully of all, trying to remake the world in your image?  


Read JLA: New World Order, this issue was discussed with the hyperclan..
Humanity must climb it's own path. and they should catch them if they fall. you're talking about a paranoia about every "stopping a bully" will always come to fascism.. not necessarilly, interfering to save lives in a proper manner is different it different than reshaping the world for peace by violent measns.. get the difference between the two

More "USA = The World" syndrome.

Quote

Sometimes the greatest test of power is knowing when to use it and when not to.  It's a delicate balancing act for Superman, and for the nation.  Sure Supes may have a hard time answering the kid who says "why didn't you kill Mongul before he wiped out my planet?", but at the end of the day Superman has to live with himself.  Only he can decide where he will draw the line.  And frankly, killing a villain to prevent the possibility of a future crime is, for him, crossing the line.


I agree with this though.. I think you should ask the pre-crisis superman about this one who has commited more murders than his post-crisis self.

Quote

Going back to one of your examples, yes the SWAT shooter does the right thing in killing the would-be bomber.  But he does it because there's no way to get close enough to the guy and disarm him before he pushes the plunger.  I'd like to believe most SWAT team members are good people willing to do a job not everyone would.  Yes, they pull the trigger, but at the end of the day, I'm betting they are troubled at having taken anyone's life.

The point is they do it because they have no other options.  Superman has vowed to himself that he will always find an option (and with all his powers, he usually can).  In this case, he can remove the bomb from the terrorist at super-speed before that button gets pushed.  I'm willing to bet any SWAT sharp-shooter, if given an option like that, would take it before shooting someone in the head.


Agreed. with supes there has always got to be another way.

If anyone asks my opinion on whether he should kill ... NO!
Logged

Otenami Haiken to iko ka
Rugal 3:16
Last Son of Krypton
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 341



« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2003, 12:31:32 AM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
The Pre-Crisis Superman was so powerful that he didn't need to kill anyone for any reason. He was also much smarter (a million times over) than the current Superman and sloved many problems without even throwing a single punch.


Yup and all those smarters and powers brought his sales down in the early eighties *which you'd probably just pick up your daily fix of batches of Cary bates and Maggin excuses as last resort "prove you you're wrongsies".
Logged

Otenami Haiken to iko ka
Zach-EL
Superman Fan
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2003, 07:07:49 AM »

Superman should never kill.  For a varity of reasons.
1)what suddely makes him god?  If his code is shattered nothing really keeps him back.
2)prcedent.  Today it is Mongol.  Tmorrow Brainiac, then Toyman, Prankster, Galactic Golem, then luthor, then Donnovan, parasite, Solomon Grundy, see where this is going.
3)many villians have turned good.

as for politics.  Politics is plain stupid period even in the real world.


Quote
Yup and all those smarters and powers brought his sales down in the early eighties *which you'd probably just pick up your daily fix of batches of Cary bates and Maggin excuses as last resort "prove you you're wrongsies".


DC right now dosen't even have a thrid of those eighties sales.

Zach-el
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

CURRENT FORUM

Archives: OLD FORUM  -  DCMB  -  KAL-L
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM
Entrance ·  Origin ·  K-Metal ·  The Living Legend ·  About the Comics ·  Novels ·  Encyclopaedia ·  The Screen ·  Costumes ·  Read Comics Online ·  Trophy Room ·  Creators ·  ES!M ·  Fans ·  Multimedia ·  Community ·  Supply Depot ·  Gift Shop ·  Guest Book ·  Contact & Credits ·  Links ·  Coming Attractions ·  Free E-mail ·  Forum

Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster
The LIVING LEGENDS of SUPERMAN! Adventures of Superman Volume 1!
Return to SUPERMAN THROUGH THE AGES!
The Complete Supply Depot for all your Superman needs!