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Poll
Question: Which origin should Superman have?  (Voting closed: December 28, 2004, 04:42:00 PM)
Byrne's MOS - 4 (11.1%)
Loeb's Silver-Age redux - 2 (5.6%)
Waid's Birthright - 6 (16.7%)
Weisinger Silver/Bronze Age ("pre Crisis") origin - 16 (44.4%)
original Siegel & Shuster origin - 5 (13.9%)
all of the above - 2 (5.6%)
something else; none of the above - give details - 1 (2.8%)
Total Voters: 35

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Author Topic: Which origin do you prefer?  (Read 35367 times)
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Beyonder
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« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2005, 02:17:55 PM »

Quote from: "GeorgeKirk"
Quote from: "Beyonder"
. . . Besides, Byrne's Krypton is much more meaningful then a suposedly "benevolent" Krypton, whose society was a wet towel when it came to killing somebody, but would doom them insteadt to un-life in the Phantom Zone; some of them for eternity, like poor Jax-Ur.  :shock:


How is Byrne's Krypton more meaningful? Byrne made his Krypton sterile and emotionless for the sole purpose of killing the cool Kryptonian part of the Superman mythos, so he could say "Superman's home planet isn't worth revisiting, and it deserved to blow up anyway". Every time the Iron Age Superman came under some kind of Kryptonian influence, it always had a negative effect i.e. he became cold and unfeeling and tried to take over the world or something.

I'll agree that pre-Crisis Krypton's Phantom Zone punishment is ethically and morally questionable, but that alone doesn't make Byrne's Krypton better.


Certainly not, George. If we had the chance, most sane people would want to visit Pre-Crisis Krypton, but would rather die then having to live on Post-Crisis Krypton.

But, I didn't say Byrne's Krypton was the "better" place then Weisinger's Krypton: I said it was the more meaningful place. (There is a difference, you know.  Smiley )

But, compare the 2 major Kryptons: the "Weisinger Krypton", which had many earlier and later versions, but finds its ultimate expression in the version which was showcased during Weisinger's run; and the "Byrne Krypton", which also had several slightly different versions.

In WK, we find a world which is full of natural beauty: the "Jewel Mountains" and the "Rainbow Fountain", to name but two.

They have a population which is, on the surface, highly good-natured; but
Quote
only
on the surface.

BK, by comparision, clearly is a powerful metapher about what would happen if we ever would make shience, laws and technology our goods: in the end, we, as well as our planet, would become sterile outside, vile and corrupted inside.

As to the "Phantom Zone Solution" being just "questionable"... that's a understatement, don't you think?!

Y' know, there's a reason why even a mass murderer must not be tortured to death (at least under american and UN law), though some might say he well deserves such a ghastly end. The punishments always stop by an relatively painless execution.

But how would you call being punished with even a month in the Phantom Zone-- a place where you must allways watch reality, without ever being permitted to be a part of it?? I at least would prefer to die to having to suffer such a curse for even a week!


And now imagine the average Zoner who suffered in this hell for a generation-- or the poor people who are "livers".

Honest, Byrne's Krypton is a little less evil then Weisinger's.

besides, think of the symbolism: Pre-Byrne, Supes was the best Krypton had to offer-- and since no one really took a closer look at the deeper aspects of Krypton, everybody thought this world was somehow "better" then our planet. (No capital punishments, science which would leave Reed Richards green with envy, etc.)

But Byrne's Krypton is a methapher of heriditary sin-- science worship which ever tries to pull the hero back into his dark abbys.

What "meaning" would you give to Weisinger's Krypton?
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Beyonder
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« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2005, 02:28:40 PM »

Quote from: "Mizrael"
Ok, so who're the other 3 old farts who Voted Siegler & Shuster like me?  :roll: In my own personal reality, Doomsday and the death of Superman don't exist!  :shock: Not to mention the many deaths of Supergirl!  :?


It's not nice to call somebody a "old fart" just because he prefers a 70 years-old version of Supes.  Tongue   :evil:

...And I miss Kara too...  Sad

We'll never get her back permanently, will we?!
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Mizrael
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« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2005, 10:22:27 PM »

Quote from: "Beyonder"
Quote from: "Mizrael"
Ok, so who're the other 3 old farts who Voted Siegler & Shuster like me?  :roll: In my own personal reality, Doomsday and the death of Superman don't exist!  :shock: Not to mention the many deaths of Supergirl!  :?


It's not nice to call somebody a "old fart" just because he prefers a 70 years-old version of Supes.  Tongue   :evil:

...And I miss Kara too...  Sad

We'll never get her back permanently, will we?!


Well at least you noticed that I was including myself in the group.  :roll: Having just had the birthday that celebrates "The Answer to Life, The Universe and Everything" according to Douglas Adams, I grew up with 10 cent comics and Krypto, Superbaby and Super Boy and Supergirl tales! Hell! I collected Superbaby comics as a kid! How's that for farty?  :roll:
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Beyonder
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« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2005, 08:25:45 PM »

Mizrael, I missed the "like me" part.  Cheesy

As to being "farty"... I don't know about that. I allways thought that without the people who bought the comics as kids, the Superman legend wold have DIED long ago.  :?:

I wish I was old enough to have lived in the Weisinger/Superman mythos first-hand-- as things stand, I'm just old enough to remember the last six years before Byrne's Superman version. Though a later version is my favorite Superman, I'm well aware that I came in late, when the earlier originality of Weisinger's myth had been long turned to being clished.  Sad

You know, instead of feeling "old", you should relish the fact that you were around when the best-known version of Supes started! It really just depends on how important Superman is to you.
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Mizrael
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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2005, 08:45:39 PM »

Oh, While I may be "Old" in years, I'm still very much young at heart. Besides, as people keep trying to tell me, 42 isn't old.... Uh huh!  Tongue
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Beyonder
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« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2005, 08:49:03 PM »

Nice to hear it. With this talk about Supes' original origin, I first thought you were over 60; then you'd be REALLY lucky-- at least so far as being allmost as long around as our favorite.  Smiley
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Kuuga
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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2005, 09:19:07 PM »

On the subject of meaning in Krypton, the ones I find the most meaningful are actually not in the comics.  That isn't a slight to the Silver Age version because I enjoy it as well.

First and formost is the Krypton from STAS which draws influences from nearly every version of Krypton there has ever been.  I think it strikes a good balance because it's not just the Krypton that is cold and just there to die so Superman can be human like Byrnes, yet it's also quite a bit less wacky than the Silver Age version.

What I liked is that the explanation for why the council chose not to believe Jor-El was not only their arrogance but also a great dependance on technology for their answer to everything.  Not only a classic science fiction theme, but a very timely one for when the show was made that resonates even now.  (and the *perfect* way to bring Brainiac into the story.)

I really enjoyed the design sense that Bruce Timm brought to it.  Lots of little touches, everything from the architecture to the fact that this time it's Lara who has the curl.

I also like the version of Krypton in the movies. While in many ways this Krypton is cold even literally, it also really works the religous metaphor. In a sense you get the idea that Krypton is heaven. Or at least, it was and its angels could not concieve that they could die.

To me the reason why Krypton it is meaningful for Krypton to be a place worth remembering is not only because I believe that it's essential to Supermans character but also even from day one the idea behind Krypton is that it is a world just like Earth that managed to achive all the wonderful dreams of mankind. It was a world that made it, and but for the arrogance of a few, it was all lost.

One of the defining elements of whether or not I like a version of Krypton is in how the rocket launch/goodbye scene is handled.  Nearly every version of it I've ever scene I found to be a very moving. Sometimes even to the point of getting misty eyed. It's such a wonderful story. Sad yet filled with swelling of hope by knowing that this poor little baby from a doomed world will become the greatest hero ever known.  All the version of Krypton I've seen have been able to do this.  

All except one.  

Byrne Krypton.  I don't know if it's the look of the place, the sterile world thing, Laras stupid "Ohh! He bares his flesh in the air!" or "he can shape them to proper Kryptonian ways" lines.  Or the fugly orange egg on a hyperdrive ship. But it just did nothing for me at all.  It's pretty clear that with Byrne Krypton you're not supposed to give a crap about because Byrne doesn't either and if you're determined to apply the Marvel paradigm to every superhero in existance, including Superman then I guess it's not supposed to matter anyway.   :?
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Mizrael
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« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2005, 09:27:57 PM »

Quote from: "Beyonder"
Nice to hear it. With this talk about Supes' original origin, I first thought you were over 60; then you'd be REALLY lucky-- at least so far as being allmost as long around as our favorite.  Smiley


LOL Yeah, thankfully I'm not THAT old yet, but since I did start reading comics at age 2 along with my Doctor Suess books because my brother was reading them, 1965 was about when I started my Superman addiction.  :roll:
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