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Poll
Question: Which origin should Superman have?  (Voting closed: December 28, 2004, 04:42:00 PM)
Byrne's MOS - 4 (11.1%)
Loeb's Silver-Age redux - 2 (5.6%)
Waid's Birthright - 6 (16.7%)
Weisinger Silver/Bronze Age ("pre Crisis") origin - 16 (44.4%)
original Siegel & Shuster origin - 5 (13.9%)
all of the above - 2 (5.6%)
something else; none of the above - give details - 1 (2.8%)
Total Voters: 35

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Author Topic: Which origin do you prefer?  (Read 35309 times)
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lastkryptonianhere
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« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2005, 11:31:08 PM »

I find merits in all the "origin" stories - the Classic Golden Age Origin is the basis for all others but the other origin tales enhance and honor it in there own way.  I however will say that Bryne got one thing right at least - Martha and Jonathan Kent.  The Kents gave a different type of charactactization to Clark and Superman and gave him a sense of family unmatched even by the Silver Age Supergirl.  But as with all things that is my opinion and that  a quarter will get you only a cheap cup of day old coffee.
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MarkPalenik
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2005, 12:13:55 AM »

I picked the original Siegel&Shuster origin.  I'm not all that familiar with it, and I think it misses a lot of my favorite elements, like Johnathen and Martha Kent.  But the one thing I really liked about it was the description of Superman's powers.

I liked the idea of Superman being the man of tomorow - that he didn't necessarrily come from a planet that was heavier than earth, or that had a red sun, just that he came from a race of people who were "highly evolved".  Is it realistic to assume that evolution would ever do that?  No.  But none of the other origins are realistic either.  Even though mankind will never be able to outrun bullets and jump over buildings, in the original Superman origin story, it seemed that there was some kind of hope.  There was the belief that in the future, we could become something great, and that ever day, humanity could become better than the last.
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2005, 01:58:37 AM »

Quote from: "MarkPalenik"
I picked the original Siegel&Shuster origin.  I'm not all that familiar with it, and I think it misses a lot of my favorite elements, like Johnathen and Martha Kent.  But the one thing I really liked about it was the description of Superman's powers.

I liked the idea of Superman being the man of tomorow - that he didn't necessarrily come from a planet that was heavier than earth, or that had a red sun, just that he came from a race of people who were "highly evolved".  Is it realistic to assume that evolution would ever do that?  No.  But none of the other origins are realistic either.  Even though mankind will never be able to outrun bullets and jump over buildings, in the original Superman origin story, it seemed that there was some kind of hope.  There was the belief that in the future, we could become something great, and that ever day, humanity could become better than the last.


Here is the UNCUT version, it's a lot longer than the version that ran in Action Comics #1 or even Superman #1.

enjoy:

http://superman.nu/tales2/adventurestrip/
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Mizrael
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2005, 04:10:52 AM »

Argh! What happens to Lois?!?! I hate when people do that!  :oops:  Tongue
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Beyonder
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2005, 09:21:58 AM »

Quote from: "Kuuga"
On the subject of meaning in Krypton, the ones I find the most meaningful are actually not in the comics.  That isn't a slight to the Silver Age version because I enjoy it as well.

First and formost is the Krypton from STAS which draws influences from nearly every version of Krypton there has ever been.  I think it strikes a good balance because it's not just the Krypton that is cold and just there to die so Superman can be human like Byrnes, yet it's also quite a bit less wacky than the Silver Age version.

What I liked is that the explanation for why the council chose not to believe Jor-El was not only their arrogance but also a great dependance on technology for their answer to everything.  Not only a classic science fiction theme, but a very timely one for when the show was made that resonates even now.  (and the *perfect* way to bring Brainiac into the story.)

I really enjoyed the design sense that Bruce Timm brought to it.  Lots of little touches, everything from the architecture to the fact that this time it's Lara who has the curl.

I also like the version of Krypton in the movies. While in many ways this Krypton is cold even literally, it also really works the religous metaphor. In a sense you get the idea that Krypton is heaven. Or at least, it was and its angels could not concieve that they could die.

To me the reason why Krypton it is meaningful for Krypton to be a place worth remembering is not only because I believe that it's essential to Supermans character but also even from day one the idea behind Krypton is that it is a world just like Earth that managed to achive all the wonderful dreams of mankind. It was a world that made it, and but for the arrogance of a few, it was all lost.

One of the defining elements of whether or not I like a version of Krypton is in how the rocket launch/goodbye scene is handled.  Nearly every version of it I've ever scene I found to be a very moving. Sometimes even to the point of getting misty eyed. It's such a wonderful story. Sad yet filled with swelling of hope by knowing that this poor little baby from a doomed world will become the greatest hero ever known.  All the version of Krypton I've seen have been able to do this.  

All except one.  

Byrne Krypton.  I don't know if it's the look of the place, the sterile world thing, Laras stupid "Ohh! He bares his flesh in the air!" or "he can shape them to proper Kryptonian ways" lines.  Or the fugly orange egg on a hyperdrive ship. But it just did nothing for me at all.  It's pretty clear that with Byrne Krypton you're not supposed to give a crap about because Byrne doesn't either and if you're determined to apply the Marvel paradigm to every superhero in existance, including Superman then I guess it's not supposed to matter anyway.   :?


Your points are all well taken, Kuuga.  Cool

But my guess why you didn't feel moved by Byrne's Krypton at ALL is that it was indeed that strange ""Ooooh! He bares his flesh in the air!!" reaction of Lara. It WAS a big departure from what we knew of Jor_El & Lara, and even I found this scene more revolting and attention-craving then "complex" or fascinating"...  :?

I found the being shunted off to earth part of Byrne also left me oddly indifferent. But Byrne's Krypton as a whole is STILL the most magnificient of all Kryptons, because it turned Superman's tale (and origin) into some veritable Epic: Superman wasn't just some mindless "kryptonian patriot" trying to live UP to the ethics of an culture whose morals were dubious at best (Phantom Zone, or that custom to force young people to take up a job choosed for them by an computer?? WTF???), but who's the very paragon of the word "Hero".

Plus, there was this aspect of "Dark Krypton" allways trying to reach from the grave and remake Superman into its own corrupted image...  Cool
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Captain Kal
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2005, 04:01:49 PM »

One significant thing that Waid did splendidly in Birthright was give women, Lara and Martha in particular, a more equal footing in the supermythos.  Lara is a co-equal and even a greater contributor to the moral strength of Kal's parents.  Lara even designed the navigation system instead of being some dumb bystander in awe of Jor's genius.  Martha is more embracing of Clark's alien heritage and supportive while Jonathan is more threatened by it.  Lois, 'nuff said.

Lara in all other incarnations besides the Byrned one is at best a foil for Jor-El and certainly not a major contributor to Kal's heritage nor character.

But Byrne messed-up big-time with his rendition of Lara.  Here we have an obstructive prude who seems to deserve to die with the sterile Krypton that spawned her.  Byrned Lara is intolerant, quite narrow-minded, and quite elitist.  We see nothing of redeeming value in her and she exists primarily to be knocked by Byrned Jor-El for consistently being wrong all the time.  Would it have troubled Byrne to have used the old Science Council angle or something like it to be the foil to show how right Jor was and wrong Krypton's POV was?  Unca Johnny had to go and desecrate Lara.

Byrned Martha is similarly lacking in contribution to Clark and is largely a second class stereotype of what a farm matron is.  It's Jonathan who boldly jumps in to check out the spacecraft while Martha hangs back.   It's Jonathan who's the guy who lectures Clark -- belatedly by several years! -- of the evils of abusing his powers for personal gain (a la Peter Parker). It's Jonathan who comes up with the secret ID for using Clark's powers publicly.  It's Martha who plays a stereotypical seamstress for the costume and is firmly secondary to her husband.

IOW, on analysis, Byrne's MOS is not only stereotypical but smacks of misogynism.

Thank goodness Waid finally not only set this right but he elevated Lara to a peer and full partner for BR Jor-El.  The same goes for BR Martha.
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Captain Kal

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Kuuga
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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2005, 05:26:16 PM »

I liked how in the animated series it's Martha who's most curious to discover what's inside the ship while Johnathan has that great line. "We don't know where that baby is from! He could be Russian! A Sputnik baby!"  :lol:
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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2005, 07:17:02 PM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
One significant thing that Waid did splendidly in Birthright was give women, Lara and Martha in particular, a more equal footing in the supermythos.  Lara is a co-equal and even a greater contributor to the moral strength of Kal's parents.  Lara even designed the navigation system instead of being some dumb bystander in awe of Jor's genius.  Martha is more embracing of Clark's alien heritage and supportive while Jonathan is more threatened by it.  Lois, 'nuff said.

Lara in all other incarnations besides the Byrned one is at best a foil for Jor-El and certainly not a major contributor to Kal's heritage nor character.

I agree with you 100%, but I think it's important to remember that in the original Siegel & Shuster story, Lara did have a minor role as the indirect originator of the idea of sending Kal off in a rocket. (see http://superman.nu/tales2/adventurestrip/?page=6 )  In all the later retellings, this detail seems to have been quickly forgotten.
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"I just wish that you could all see the Earth the way that I see it - because when you really look at it, it's just one world."
- Superman, Superman IV: The Quest for Peace
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