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Question: Should DCCP and S Crisis Crossovers be included in the list of canonical sources?  (Voting closed: March 14, 2005, 10:46:35 PM)
Yes - 9 (69.2%)
No - 4 (30.8%)
Total Voters: 13

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Author Topic: include DCCP and S Crisis Crossovers?  (Read 19744 times)
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Great Rao
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« on: March 08, 2005, 03:46:35 AM »

OK, first read this thread.

Then read this thread.

Now - the question:

Should we continue to include the following Crisis Crossovers

DC Comics Presents 78, 86-88, 95
Superman 413-415

in the list of canonical sources, or should we remove them?

(poll closes March 15th)

S!
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2005, 04:32:25 AM »

I originally wanted all pre-reboot issues to be included, but then maybe it's better to ignore Crisis altogether, since it's just a ugly killjoy that would overtake and taint the whole site, since nearly every entry DIED during that mess of a series. Well, the art was great, however :p

Then again, it would be sad to loose Superboy-Prime and it would be nice to end it with Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?  issues.

I will go along with whatever people want of course and it could work both ways.
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2005, 05:42:10 AM »

Not being that familiar with the material in question, I cant say decisevely either way.

Pass.
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Great Rao
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2005, 06:14:42 AM »

DCCP:
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=39642 (Forgotten Villains)
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40486 (Supergirl)
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40603 (Superboy Prime)
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40718 (Creeper)

Superman:
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40619
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40732 (Superboy Prime/Revenge Squad/Mourning Supergirl)
http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=40962 (Supergirl's Secret Marriage)

S!
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2005, 06:28:50 AM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
nearly every entry DIED during that mess of a series


Quite nicely sums up the overwhelming major problem of including Crisis in this project.

My essential fan persona loves knowing all about Crisis and my brain was pre-conditioned by years of comics reading to shoe-horn any retcon into DC continuity so this is a hard decision.  Ultimately this is a question of matters beyond general questions of continuity and comics history.  It is a question of art, of taste, and of (dare I say it) integrity.  Most of the people on this board, those people who are fans more of the pre-Crisis Superman stories and of what they represent in terms of quality and even morality, would agree that the propaganda purposes of this project preclude any reference to Crisis.  It could be considered a form of controlled censorship, I suppose, but it really is judicious editing.

That being said, I'm a fan of the actual Crisis series and as a teenager devoured it whole cloth.  Ironically the story is a fantastic homage to all the aspects of DC continuity which I love: the multiple Earths, the variations on the Superman origin myth, obscure characters, high melodrama.  Only in retrospect did I realize what we had lost with Crisis and what we are trying to regain with projects like the encyclopedia.

As a side note, an interesting article in Wired magazine this month about the Wikipedia folks leads me to believe that Supermanica will eventually be contained within a vast web of interactive encyclopedia projects and our various continuity issues will be rendered moot through hyperlinks.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2005, 06:49:44 AM »

Having supported the inclusion of DC Comics Presents as canon, I prefer to keep the entire series intact.  And one of my favorite characters was Superboy-Prime.  I vote AYE.

But may I make a suggestion?

Perhaps Supermanica SHOULD be writen as a Pre-Crisis "Earth-1" tome, but like it or not the Crisis is simply too big to ignore.  I earlier suggested adding a "Crisis to Reboot" addenda to appropriate entries for completion's sake -- thus we cover the "gray area" but keep it separate from the main entry.

But if there's not too much material (new entries or updates) from this "gray area", then why not combine them ALL into ONE section completely SEPARATE from the main Supermanica.  Call it the "Dark Appendix" or the "Twilight Compendium".  Under a brief description of the Crisis and the Reboot (we can drop the "Earth-1" viewpoint pretense in this reference) we can then list in alphabetical order the noteworthy addenda -- Superboy-Prime, the death of Supergirl, the last issue of DCCP versus the Imaginary Story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", etc.

This approach keeps the Supermanica "pure" and untainted by the Crisis, covering Superman in his full Gold/Silver/Bronze Age glory.  But the separate book covering Crisis and afterwards would complete the Legend (though obviously not in a way that many prefer, even twenty years after the fact).   However, this could be a workable compromise.
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 10:04:52 AM »

Quote from: "dto"
the separate book covering Crisis and afterwards would complete the Legend (though obviously not in a way that many prefer, even twenty years after the fact).   However, this could be a workable compromise.


Crisis is so big it should be ignored.

The whole idea of Supermanica in my opinion is that the legend is not complete but ongoing (or at least in limbo) and that Crisis and Byrne were mistakes.

I think a separate encyclopedia that assumes Superman began in 1986 and that Earth is an amalgam of now-defunct alternate Earths is a better idea. *  DC has recently published such an encyclopedia.  The Supermanica may seem a little necrophilic, focusing on apparently dead or never-existing people and events, but entire cultures like ancient Egypt and Tibet are based on similar premises (not to mention cultures based on the New Testament). :wink:

*You could even include Supermanica entries in this other encyclopedia, but note at the end of each entry: "This person/object ceased to exist in November 1985 (or whenever it was), Crisis No.12: "The Whole Enchilada"," or whatever.

Kind of a thankless/useless task, really, like building sand-castles.
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2005, 12:47:44 PM »

The Crisis did not destroy the Superman Legend: Byrne did.

Superman continued right on being Superman through the Crisis and even beyond. He was still from the marvelous Silver Age version of Krypton that we all love, he still visited Kandor, he was morning for his cousin, Kara.

It wan't until the reboot that the Silver age Superman was destroyed.

I posted a poll earlier asking what is your favoriate era of Superman.

The Schwartz Era finished a close second to Weisinger's. Are we now going to chop the end of of his great run because it touches on the Crisis?

It as been said that the Crisis is too big and will override everything else.

I do no believe this.

It has not bee proposed that the Crisis issues themselves be included. Only that those Superman issues set durring the Crisis be included, but even if the Crisis maxi-series was canon it would only be a small part of this project.

Most of the entries in the GSB would be unaffected and has for Superman who is the real subject here, his entry in the GSB is dozens of pages long. Completing it in the same style up to the reboot would take dozens more. The Crisis would be only a small part of it at the end.

And as I pointed out earlier Superman survives the Crisis with his history intact. If we leave off there the legend still continues.
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