include DCCP and S Crisis Crossovers?

[Admiral Chew]

So in conclusion, the cut-off point should not be before Crisis, but rather, right before the 'Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?' issues. (How would keeping those issues in Supermanica, be 'continuing the Pre-Crisis or Earth-1 Superman' when they ended it?). As the Superman presented in the months immediately after Crisis was the same Superman who existed before it.

I agree but I'd got ahead and leave the two issues that include "What Happend to the Man of Tomorrow" in the list of canonical sources just as all of the other imaginary stories are in the list.

People just need to recognized the it is imaginary and treat it the same way they would treat a story like "The Amazing Story of Superman-Red/Superman-blue" when doing the entries.

[Admiral Chew]

Crisis on the other hand I think merits an inclusion into Supermanica, but should really should just present an outline on the events that took place, (with other entries for the main players, such as Monitor, Anti-Monitor, Alexander Luthor III and Hardbringer), with the main focus being on how it affected Superman. Kara's death, regardless of what it was intended to be (removing Kryptonian survivors from the mythos), her heroic sacrifice is one of the defining moments in her and her cousin's history. There is no need for ridiculous 'Due to the effects of the Crisis, this character and his history ceased to exist' nonsense in every single entry.

It's not even clear that they all did cease to exist due to the Crisis.

Most if not all of the Superman Mythos was clearly intact after the Crisis. Kandor, the Phantom Zone, Bizarro World were all seen post-crisis. Why should be assume that the Anti-Superman Gang and The Puzzler disappeared due to the Crisis.

It was Byrne's reboot that erased all of those things. Not the Crisis.

[TELLE]

It seems like there is a division between Byrne-tolerators and Crisis-toleraters on this issue.

I guess Crisis did introduce some major changes to the last 6 months of regular Superman titles, mostly eliminating the posibility of a team-up with Earth-2 Superman & Co. and any new stories with Supergirl.

From my point of view the major Superman-related aspects of Crisis can be dealt with (if it comes to that --and voting seems to be going that way) with a minor reference in a long entry.  Can I suggest that when the time comes to make these references, that the facts be presented as "apparent"?  As in "Supergirl apparently sacrificed her life in November 1985 to defeat the reality threatening Beyonder" (or whatever).   Write it as if you were Fleisher, handing in his encyclopedia manuscript right in the middle of a 2-issue Supergirl story circa 1975.

And one more argument for not including Crisis:  why aren't we including all the other JLA-JSA Crisis episodes or other series wherein Superman meets another character for the first time or when Earth-S is firmly entrenched into Superman's reality or when Black Canary becomes part of E-1 continuity, etc.?  Crisis is a non-Superman comic book series in which Superman plays a pivotal role.  So is JLA.  So is whatever Batman stories Supes has appeared in.  So is All-Star Comics.  Or AS Squadron, for that matter.

[Super Monkey]

Since it looks like Crisis will be coming to the Project, it important to understand just what this means.

All it means that the issues during Crisis and after up until the reboot will now be allow to be included into the project. Any character that didn't appear in these books should not be added as an entry no matter how important they were to Crisis itself.

The Crisis mini series itself is NOT, since it is no more canonical than the other books which star or co-star Superman which are not being included.

Just these Crisis crossiver issues:
DC Comics Presents 78, 86-88, 95
Superman 413-415

More on them later.

Also:

"What Happend to the Man of Tomorrow" is an imaginary story. It will be added to the new imaginary stories Category, once that's made

[Klar Ken T5477]

And asterisk those issues you cited above, Beppo, and send them to the Forbidden Zone page.

Yes - Imaginary Stories category - FANS DEMAND!

[The Starchild]

I don't see the need for a separate imaginary stories category  :?:   Categories are for categories of objects,  people, and other physical things - not for separating continuites.  As nightwing has noted, Fleisher went out of his way to treat everything as one continuity, but with notes pointing out when it contradicts itself.

I think it makes sense to continue to treat imaginary stories just as Fleisher did:  He included events from the imaginary stories in the various entries, but with a note that those events are from an "imaginary story."  Here's an illustration taken from the Lana Lang entry of the Great Superman Book:




Therefore the events in Superman Red/Blue and in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? can be included in the Superman entry, but with a prefix like, "In June 1986, in an imaginary story, Superman...."

[Super Monkey]

I don't see the need for a separate imaginary stories category  :?:   Categories are for categories of objects,  people, and other physical things - not for separating continuites.  As nightwing has noted, Fleisher went out of his way to treat everything as one continuity, but with notes pointing out when it contradicts itself.

Well, we are not Fleisher Besides he was nuts

These stories are not mere continuities; they are not a part of any continuity and never have been and were never suppose to be. Therefore, to include every imaginary tale in the Superman entry would only serve to clutter and confuse that entry. I guess we can have another poll for this if need be.

And asterisk those issues you cited above, Beppo, and send them to the Forbidden Zone page.

This all reminds me of the story of Pandora:

In Greek mythology, Pandora was the first woman on earth. Zeus ordered Hephaestus, the god of craftsmanship, to create her and he did, using water and earth. The gods endowed her with many talents; Aphrodite gave her beauty, Apollo music, Hermes persuasion, and so forth. Hence her name: Pandora, "all-gifted".

When Prometheus stole fire from heaven, Zeus took vengeance by presenting Pandora to Epimetheus, Prometheus' brother. With her, Pandora had a jar which she was not to open under any circumstance. Impelled by her natural curiosity, Pandora opened the jar, and all evil contained escaped and spread over the earth. She hastened to close the lid, but the whole contents of the jar had escaped, except for one thing which lay at the bottom, and that was Hope.

from: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/pandora.html

[Admiral Chew]

I don't see the need for a separate imaginary stories category  :?:   Categories are for categories of objects,  people, and other physical things - not for separating continuites.

I agree.

And how does an imaginary category work anyway?

The Superman entry in the GSB references imaginary stories. Does that mean that Superman's entry will be labeled as imaginary even though 99% of it is from non-imaginary stories?