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Poll
Question: Should DCCP and S Crisis Crossovers be included in the list of canonical sources?  (Voting closed: March 14, 2005, 10:46:35 PM)
Yes - 9 (69.2%)
No - 4 (30.8%)
Total Voters: 13

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Author Topic: include DCCP and S Crisis Crossovers?  (Read 15943 times)
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Bill 9000
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2005, 01:13:23 PM »

I voted "nay". I've always thought of this project as being a continuation of the Pre-Crisis Superman universe, and that's the way I've written the entries that I've submitted. I consider the Crisis to be a sad ending to a wonderfully rich stretch of DC history. If losing Superboy-Prime is the sacrifice that has to be made, then so be it. Sad

But I'll defer to the opinions of the majority. :wink:
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The Starchild
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2005, 01:16:02 PM »

This is the problem with Crisis.  It generates so much heat that it takes over.

I say that we include the issues in question.  The problem is that if we decide that we can remove select issues that we dislike, who's to say where it will stop?  Should we continue on to writers or artists that we don't like?  We can't do that.   I continue to stump for the approach that we either have to include all of a given title or none of it.

Having said that, however, I think we should have an unstated policy of completely ignoring Crisis itself and any events around it - and that includes anything that would point out or acknowledge the existence of Crisis, like having holes in the listed run of canonical issues.

So for instance, if one of these issues of DCCP shows that Professor Pepperwinkle owns a grey tabby cat, we can add the bit of information to the Pepperwinkle entry with the appropriate reference.  But if Superman goes off to join the Monitor's battle with the Anti-Monitor and gets swallowed by Shadows, we completely ignore that and don't mention it.
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Admiral Chew
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2005, 01:43:10 PM »

Quote from: "The Starchild"
This is the problem with Crisis.  It generates so much heat that it takes over.

I say that we include the issues in question.  The problem is that if we decide that we can remove select issues that we dislike, who's to say where it will stop?  Should we continue on to writers or artists that we don't like?  We can't do that.   I continue to stump for the approach that we either have to include all of a given title or none of it.

Having said that, however, I think we should have an unstated policy of completely ignoring Crisis itself and any events around it - and that includes anything that would point out or acknowledge the existence of Crisis, like having holes in the listed run of canonical issues.

So for instance, if one of these issues of DCCP shows that Professor Pepperwinkle owns a grey tabby cat, we can add the bit of information to the Pepperwinkle entry with the appropriate reference.  But if Superman goes off to join the Monitor's battle with the Anti-Monitor and gets swallowed by Shadows, we completely ignore that and don't mention it.


How about this?

When including anything from the Crisis that is in the canonical sources think of it as the Silver Age Superman would have thought of it in the post-crisis, per-reboot issues. Don't think of it as a post-byrne reader would think of it.

So yes, Superman faced the anti-monitoer, yes Kara is dead, yes history has been altered somewhat. But life goes on and he still remembers the events that he has participated in, in his 50 year career. He's still spent the last 50 years battling Lex Luther and enduring the pranks of Mxyzptlk. He's still spent 5 decades sorting out his feelings for Lois and being Jim Olsen's Pal.
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The Starchild
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2005, 02:08:55 PM »

Quote from: "Admiral Chew"
So yes, Superman faced the anti-monitoer, yes Kara is dead, yes history has been altered somewhat.

Only if it's mentioned in one of the Superman titles.  And I don't think we need to mention the history altering aspect even if it is.  Remember Fleisher's approach of treating the conflicting continuity as all-one.
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But life goes on and he still remembers the events that he has participated in, in his 50 year career. He's still spent the last 50 years battling Lex Luther and enduring the pranks of Mxyzptlk. He's still spent 5 decades sorting out his feelings for Lois and being Jim Olsen's Pal.

I still say we don't have to actually mention Crisis itself - just say something like, "late in the chronicles."
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"I just wish that you could all see the Earth the way that I see it - because when you really look at it, it's just one world."
- Superman, Superman IV: The Quest for Peace
Admiral Chew
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2005, 02:28:24 PM »

Quote from: "The Starchild"
Quote from: "Admiral Chew"
So yes, Superman faced the anti-monitoer, yes Kara is dead, yes history has been altered somewhat.

Only if it's mentioned in one of the Superman titles.  And I don't think we need to mention the history altering aspect even if it is.  Remember Fleisher's approach of treating the conflicting continuity as all-one.
Quote
But life goes on and he still remembers the events that he has participated in, in his 50 year career. He's still spent the last 50 years battling Lex Luther and enduring the pranks of Mxyzptlk. He's still spent 5 decades sorting out his feelings for Lois and being Jim Olsen's Pal.

I still say we don't have to actually mention Crisis itself - just say something like, "late in the chronicles."


That's fine I can live with all of that. Personally, I'd rather Crisis 1-12 be canonical. They are very much a part of the same Superman mythos as all the other pre-Byrne comics. But I can live without that. I just don't think the baby should be thrown out with the bath water.

Kara's death is mentioned in at least three (currently) canonical sources. So I think it should be included. We don't have to say that she died "in the Crisis" but if the fact that the anti-monitor killed her comes up in the Superman titles I don't think that fact should be banned.
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The Starchild
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2005, 02:59:50 PM »

Quote from: "Admiral Chew"
Personally, I'd rather Crisis 1-12 be canonical. They are very much a part of the same Superman mythos as all the other pre-Byrne comics. But I can live without that. I just don't think the baby should be thrown out with the bath water.

What we're doing here is keeping and treasuring the baby, while throwing out the filthy bathwater.  Smiley
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"I just wish that you could all see the Earth the way that I see it - because when you really look at it, it's just one world."
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Klar Ken T5477
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2005, 03:42:39 PM »

finally said yes - include the best with an asterisk...that  links to the Forbidden Zone page.
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Kal's Pal
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2005, 07:56:01 PM »

One must realise that as wonderfully executed, satisfying and as historically significant as 'Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?' may be, it is presented as an imaginary story taking place outside normal continuity. While it does bring all the narrative strands of the Pre-Crisis, or rather the Earth-1 Superman who survived the Crisis with his history intact to a satisfying end as much as one can in two issues, with only a few nit-picking continuity errors, *spoilers*  the child of a powerless (due to Gold Kryptonite) Kal-El and a normal human woman Lois developing super powers; Superwoman still existing after her ancestor Jimmy Olsen was killed; a certain imp from the 5th diemension is suddenly revealed to have been an evil destructive entity all along *end spoilers* - but it's primary function as a story is to be a final homage to that era and not really taking place in that continuity. (Like the best of the imaginary stories, it is ment to be what the reader would like to see, which in this case, is how would the Superman saga come to an end).

Crisis on the other hand I think merits an inclusion into Supermanica, but should really should just present an outline on the events that took place, (with other entries for the main players, such as Monitor, Anti-Monitor, Alexander Luthor III and Hardbringer), with the main focus being on how it affected Superman. Kara's death, regardless of what it was intended to be (removing Kryptonian survivors from the mythos), her heroic sacrifice is one of the defining moments in her and her cousin's history. There is no need for ridiculous 'Due to the effects of the Crisis, this character and his history ceased to exist' nonsense in every single entry. It is something like that that would cause the Crisis to overwhelm Supermanica, when it can simply be presented in one-entry (with several others for the aforementioned main players). And as mentioned, Crisis can merely be a footnote in Superman's entry.

So in conclusion, the cut-off point should not be before Crisis, but rather, right before the 'Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?' issues. (How would keeping those issues in Supermanica, be 'continuing the Pre-Crisis or Earth-1 Superman' when they ended it?). As the Superman presented in the months immediately after Crisis was the same Superman who existed before it.
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