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Author Topic: A question about multiple universes...  (Read 15023 times)
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2005, 05:27:03 AM »

Well, OK...can't really argue it...I read the DC comics in the 60s and felt that the universe was very "real"...I guess I would welcome other opinions of folks that thought it wasn't...

My point about the Justice Society was that it brought magicians, superheroes, crime busters who used nothing other than gas, and out and out comedy routines to the table, pretty amazing stuff that DC built on later -- even in the Crisis...
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2005, 05:50:38 AM »

Quote from: "MatterEaterLad"
Well, OK...can't really argue it...I read the DC comics in the 60s and felt that the universe was very "real"...I guess I would welcome other opinions of folks that thought it wasn't...

My point about the Justice Society was that it brought magicians, superheroes, crime busters who used nothing other than gas, and out and out comedy routines to the table, pretty amazing stuff that DC built on later -- even in the Crisis...


Amen, brother!

I hope my point didn't come across as slighting the JSA in any way. If I ever slight the Justice Society in a dream, you can slap me when I wake up.
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2005, 05:58:28 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"

Amen, brother!

I hope my point didn't come across as slighting the JSA in any way. If I ever slight the Justice Society in a dream, you can slap me when I wake up.


And maybe even a race between Jay Garrick and Kal-L might have been fun in that context... Cool
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Captain Kal
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« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2005, 04:41:45 PM »

It must be noted that the Pre Crisis DCU clearly had various alternate future timelines.  The Omac/Kamandi was one.  The LSH was another.  Barry-Flash's was another.  Hal-GL's seemed to be another one.

DC once stated in a lettercol or editorial page that the various methods of time travel brought time travellers to different alternate futures.

The below link shows canon acknowledgement of the alternate futures stemming from the same mainstream DCU present era.

http://superman.nu/tales3/costumecostume/?page=17

Said link clearly shows the Omac/Kamandi timeline being contrasted and in parallel with the Legion's future.
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Captain Kal

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JulianPerez
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« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2005, 08:25:00 PM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
It must be noted that the Pre Crisis DCU clearly had various alternate future timelines.  The Omac/Kamandi was one.  The LSH was another.  Barry-Flash's was another.  Hal-GL's seemed to be another one.

DC once stated in a lettercol or editorial page that the various methods of time travel brought time travellers to different alternate futures.

The below link shows canon acknowledgement of the alternate futures stemming from the same mainstream DCU present era.

http://superman.nu/tales3/costumecostume/?page=17

Said link clearly shows the Omac/Kamandi timeline being contrasted and in parallel with the Legion's future.


DC had many alternate timelines that were established as being alternate timelines; the Earth-1 Batman teamed up with Kamandi on one occasion in BRAVE AND THE BOLD, which clearly indicated the Kamandi future on display there was an alternate timeline.

Tying all this back into the opportunity Crisis had, and squandered:

Crisis was an opportunity, finally, to clarify and decide what was IN the DC Universe, and what was out; what was an alternate universe and what wasn't, in other words.

It was an opportunity to set once and for all as ironclad editorial policy that there are not going to be two or three mutually contradictory Atlantises, two or three mutually contradictory explanations for what it was that killed the Dinosaurs, two or three mutually contradictory explanations for the dominant life form and history of the planets Mars and Venus. In other words, to set everything in concrete, to put everything in stone, to make sure when the future or Atlantis is visited by Supergirl, it is the same future or Atlantis visited by the Flash or Aquaman. But if there was to be any destruction it would be achieved in the name of building something up that makes sense.

Here we can start to see where Crisis started to go wrong: the writer/artists (boy, there's an anxiety-inducing phrase there if there ever was one) like Keith Giffen, Mike Grell, and yes, my boyfriend little Johnny Byrne, mistook this act of negation, for the ENTIRETY of the role of building a new DC: negations were not used for the purpose of creating histories that made sense, but negations and invalidations of beloved stories were made just for sake of invalidation and negation. In other words, they didn't cross things out so we can have one cohesive explanation for the death of the dinosaurs; they crossed things out just for the hell of it.
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Captain Kal
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« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2005, 08:16:21 PM »

I draw the distinction between alternate and/or parallel universes and future/alternate future timelines.

Alternate or parallel universes exist concurrently with the present-day mainstream DCU and cannot have any true continuity with it.

The various future timelines are all legitimate potential futures for the mainstream DCU and don't really represent alternate universes.  They possess the possibility of being the actual future as events develop.

It's possible to trim away all the parallel universes and still maintain alternate future timelines.  That's what Zero Hour was suggesting happened in the Crisis.

Alternate past timelines with a common present are a less used concept and I believe it was only touched upon once in all of fiction in The Kingdom re: Hypertime.
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Captain Kal

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Maximara
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« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2005, 10:12:29 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Having Superman not be the first superhero ever, and merely having him be a follower in a heroic tradition established by others decades before, is rather an insult to Superman's role in the history of comics, where he WAS the first. Superman isn't just another superhero; he was the point of origin for the entire concept. Superman as "just another superhero" compromises his uniqueness, even if he is the first after a brief pause in superheroic activity.


I see the reworking of Superman's origin as admiting the fact that while the first to be given the title 'Superhero" he was in fact not the first. There are pleanty of Superheroish characters that pre-date Superman: Popeye (1929), the Shadow (1931), Doc Savage the man of Bronze (1933), and The Phantom (1936) are the ones that have more or less survived. Others that you find by searching around a bit are The Spider (1933-44) who was a detective who dreased in a terrifing costume to scare the criminals out of their wits (sound familiar?) and the Advanger (1939) who had a very Batman like origin.
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2005, 01:48:36 AM »

Well, the boundary between hero and superhero is fuzzy, I tend to agree with Julian that Superman should be among the first in a history, he was the first or almost the first alien with super powers far and beyond mortal folks and with a science fiction explanation...
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