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Author Topic: Super-Hypnotism?  (Read 15978 times)
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2005, 12:11:31 AM »

The example from the Sand Superman saga IS interesting...
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Captain Kal
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2005, 01:28:37 PM »

With all due respect, Julian, the respect angle is inconsistent at best and incredible at worst.  The very first time he used super-hypnosis was on his beloved Lois.  Surely one of the closest people to him in both his lives would merit at least what a villain or stranger does in respect.  He's used it on the Qwardians, supposedly to strip their 'artificial veneer of evil' from them when they colonized a place on Earth-One.  How about how he used it on the entire city of Metropolis and on Spellbinder -- or tried to in the latter case -- in "The Master Mesmerizer of Metropolis"?  The fact that he uses the power at all means his supposed 'respect for free will' has some blinkers on it and may be next to nonexistent.

It's more consistent with his uncreative use of powers and tending to rely more on brute force most of the time to say he's not that inspired.

Yes, he does perform some creative stunts with just about all his powers including super-speed.  However, he tends to miss the combinations that are glaringly obvious.  Until the Mongul Jr. training, none of his incarnations would do the obvious move of super-fast pummelling his opponents millions of times in a second with his super-strength.  Even when his opponents have human-level reflexes but strength/powers rivalling his own, Superman doesn't do the stupefyingly obvious move to simply dodge their attacks at super-speed -- being effectively untouchable -- while he could rain all his other powers down on the other guy.  The same goes for most of his uber-power combinations.  The fact that DC has acknowledged this in a lettercol response, mentioned above, does support the contention that the Man of Steel is not that creative with his powers at least when it comes to combinations of them.
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Captain Kal

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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2005, 04:15:01 PM »

Quote
Until the Mongul Jr. training, none of his incarnations would do the obvious move of super-fast pummelling his opponents millions of times in a second with his super-strength.


Well, in the old days, when was there ever a need for that? He could knock out most beings with a gentle tap. No need to even punch someone super hard even once. Only during Crisis did the weaker Earth-2 Superman actually go all out against someone for the 1st time, he didn't last very long, LOL.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2005, 05:48:47 PM »

Hmmm! Thanks for bringing the "Mesmerizer" story to my attention, CaptainKal. I don't own that story so I can't bring his actions in it into context; exactly what it is it he does in the course of that story? What's the plot, more or less?

Superman's codes are rather foggy when it comes to protecting his secret identity. For example, Superman doesn't tell lies, but he lies often to protect his secret identity. "I...suppose I just fainted when that Dinosaur came to life." And so on. It is interesting to note that Superman's use of Super-Hypnotism on Lois was related to protection of his secret identity. It may be interesting to hear how Superman would justify that sort of behavior, morally. Maybe Superman figures that it's "for their own good?" After all, knowing who Superman is potentially opens them for very dangerous reprisals, so it's not hard to follow his logic here. And all it takes is a brain-reading machine built by Luthor or Brainiac to obtain this information from their minds, even if they promise not to tell, so Super-Hypnotism mindwipes may be the best course of action.

This may account for why Superman hasn't used his Super-Hypnotism on Pete Ross, for example: Superman is unaware that Pete knows his secret identity.

As for the Superspeed/Strength combinations that Superman now uses together: I get a sense they did the right thing for the wrong reason. "The right thing" is have Superman use his powers with a degree of intelligence - everybody wants a clever Superman. The wrong reason is that this sort of fighting style and strategy was made popular by the bane of my existence, the slow and loathesome and inexplicably popular foreign cartoon, Dragonball Z (who knew they had Image Comics in Asia?)

It may be entirely possible that the writers were pointing out an error that simply isn't there. The laws of physics and common sense state that it just isn't possible to go from zero-to-20,000mph in a single step; Superman would require room to accelerate and build up speed, which makes use of Superspeed in a fistfight impractical because it requires him to use space to accelerate. But there is one use of Superspeed and Superstrength he uses quite well: a superspeed ram. Now this, he DOES do, on many occasions.

Though to be fair, Superman is after all, invulnerable; why expend energy dodging when it's just going to bounce off anyway? This is also something I've said of the Mighty Thor - why does Thor use his Hammer to parry bullets when his Asgardian bod's tough enough to make this attack ineffective against him? At least Wonder Woman bracelets, pre-Crisis, made sense in this regard: Wonder Woman wasn't bulletproof.
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2005, 06:44:02 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Hmmm! Thanks for bringing the "Mesmerizer" story to my attention, CaptainKal. I don't own that story so I can't bring his actions in it into context; exactly what it is it he does in the course of that story? What's the plot, more or less?


Superman uses a giant TV screen and simulcast on all TV stations to broadcast his own super-hypnotic commands to Metropolis for them to resist all other forms of hypnotism to make them immune to Spellbinder's hypnotism.  He subsequently attempts to beat Spellbinder at his own game by super-hypnotically commanding him to surrender.  This fails due to the special lenses 'Binder wears in his mask that weaken hypnotic effects.

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Superman's codes are rather foggy when it comes to protecting his secret identity. For example, Superman doesn't tell lies, but he lies often to protect his secret identity. "I...suppose I just fainted when that Dinosaur came to life." And so on. It is interesting to note that Superman's use of Super-Hypnotism on Lois was related to protection of his secret identity. It may be interesting to hear how Superman would justify that sort of behavior, morally. Maybe Superman figures that it's "for their own good?" After all, knowing who Superman is potentially opens them for very dangerous reprisals, so it's not hard to follow his logic here. And all it takes is a brain-reading machine built by Luthor or Brainiac to obtain this information from their minds, even if they promise not to tell, so Super-Hypnotism mindwipes may be the best course of action.

This may account for why Superman hasn't used his Super-Hypnotism on Pete Ross, for example: Superman is unaware that Pete knows his secret identity.


Superman did become aware of Pete's knowledge when Pete's son Jon was kidnapped by an alien warfleet, so Pete didn't want to waste time with the fiction of pretending not to know who Clark really was.  Pete even turned into a bitter enemy trying to kill Superman for not saving Jon.  Yet, Superman never chose to mindwipe Pete in anyway, not via amnesium nor super-hypnosis, etc.

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
As for the Superspeed/Strength combinations that Superman now uses together: I get a sense they did the right thing for the wrong reason. "The right thing" is have Superman use his powers with a degree of intelligence - everybody wants a clever Superman. The wrong reason is that this sort of fighting style and strategy was made popular by the bane of my existence, the slow and loathesome and inexplicably popular foreign cartoon, Dragonball Z (who knew they had Image Comics in Asia?)


Fans have been speculating and demanding this portrayal for decades.  DC just finally listened to us about the logic of it all.

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
It may be entirely possible that the writers were pointing out an error that simply isn't there. The laws of physics and common sense state that it just isn't possible to go from zero-to-20,000mph in a single step; Superman would require room to accelerate and build up speed, which makes use of Superspeed in a fistfight impractical because it requires him to use space to accelerate. But there is one use of Superspeed and Superstrength he uses quite well: a superspeed ram. Now this, he DOES do, on many occasions.


No such law of physics forbids achieving relativistic velocities in a single step, as you put it.  It's all a matter of energy resources, and Pre Crisis Superman had virtually unlimited amounts of that.  Even the energy he typically wielded to move worlds could easily reach so close to lightspeed that it's less than a trillionth of a percent less.  Even the Byrned version who had power on the order of 40 megaton nukes at his weakest should have the energy resources to easily exceed 10% lightspeed.

Do not confuse speed as a single element or a one-dimensional power.  Speed involves many aspects besides ultimate final velocity.

Solar sails can theoretically achieve near lightspeed yet no one in their right minds would try to win a race with one.  That's because the acceleration is so abyssmally slow for said sails.  Ergo, acceleration is also an aspect of super-speed which Superman does indeed have which is also at a superhuman level.  He clearly accelerates at superhuman rates instead of the mere 10 m/sec. peak human rate or else it would take him nearly a year to accelerate up to mere lightspeed -- when he's been clocked at achieving multilightspeeds for interstellar jaunts in a matter of seconds.

Reaction time is also an aspect of speed.  Ultimate final speed may be irrelevant if others get the jump on you in reaction time.  Superman even Post Crisis has been credited with nanosecond reaction times compared with normal human 0.1 - 0.2 second peak reaction times.  To put reaction time in perspective, in the time it takes us to react, Superman would experience the subjective equivalent of over three years.

So, yes, he should be able to easily evade any normal timeframe attacks -- if the thought ever crossed his mind.

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Though to be fair, Superman is after all, invulnerable; why expend energy dodging when it's just going to bounce off anyway? This is also something I've said of the Mighty Thor - why does Thor use his Hammer to parry bullets when his Asgardian bod's tough enough to make this attack ineffective against him? At least Wonder Woman bracelets, pre-Crisis, made sense in this regard: Wonder Woman wasn't bulletproof.


True and not true, sir.  He's invulnerable to most normal attacks.  But powers and power-levels rivalling his own can and do affect him.  He can punch or pinch himself and feel it.  So can Supergirl or Krypto when it comes to harming him. (Think about it along the same lines as a real world diamond being able to scratch another diamond.) Maybe he might be allowed some leeway for letting the first attack through out of invulnerability-habit.  But it takes some pretty dense Kryptonian cranial matter to keep him from realizing he's under a harmful attack so he'd best do the super-dodge bit.  The best I was aware of Pre Crisis was when he used his cape to help shield himself from an unknown weapon so he wasn't taking any chances; he'd have been smarter just to dodge the weapon in the human-timeframe foe's hands in the first place.
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Captain Kal

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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2005, 05:28:06 PM »

On a related note, the GA Superman once used 'telepathic will control' to command an extradimensional alien to do his bidding.

IMHO, telepathic will control was the precursor to the later super-hypnosis.

Certainly, Superman had no 'free will' restrictions about imposing his own will upon another with this power.  And it had nothing to do with maintaining his secret identity or any of the other classic fuzzy areas of his morality.  It was exactly in the same spirit as his actions upon Spellbinder noted above.  He had both the power and the will to use it with no moral compunctions even hinted at restricting him from using it.
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Captain Kal

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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2005, 05:58:23 PM »

On a third related incident, when Mxyzptlk gender-reversed the Earth so Superman was facing the male Wonder Warrior (instead of Wonder Woman), and he was depowered with a kryptonite gas helmet, he used the sunlight glinting off the helmet to assist him in hypnotizing Wonder Warrior.

Again, no moral compunctions were even hinted at in this hypnosis incident.  Superman just did what he thought was needed under the circumstances.  Free will never even entered his mind as a consideration.
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Captain Kal

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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2005, 07:58:04 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
One possible rationale for why Superman seldom uses this power (apart from the obvious, that it creates solutions to problems different from actions we'd expect of Superman) is that Superman has such respect for human free will that he will not tamper with it even in extreme circumstances. This explains why Superman does not use Super-Hypnotism on Luthor....


I think this is nonsense. "Respect for human free will"? Bollocks. If he has respect for Luthor's free will, why does he try to stop Luthor from doing what he wants? Huh?

And furthermore, would Superman allow himself to be killed by Luthor (if super-hypnotism could save him) out of "respect" for Luthor's "free will"?

Huh?

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Quote
I prefer my explanation for the absence of Super-Hypnotism - Superman's respect for human free will - because it preserves Superman's intelligence and dignity, and it extends logically from his motivation and personality.


Julian, I really think you've bought too much into the hand-wringing, submissive, doormat Superman of the modern era. This is not the Superman I grew up with. I have huge love and respect for the Allied soldiers who defeated the Axis in World War Two... You couldn't find people who have more respect for human free will, or who have more intelligence and dignity -- yet they shot, stabbed, and blew up Germans and Japanese with all manner of weapons. You are confusing dignity and compassion with lack of resolve.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Oh, a further thought to help justify the uncreative post above.

The less one has the more creative one gets in using it.

The more resources, abilities, etc. one has, the less creative one needs to be with any and all of them.


I think you're onto something here... As much as I admire Superman, I think one of his fundamental flaws is "lack of imagination" when confronted with problems his strength can't solve. This is not always the case, true, but it happens often enough to mention it. And it's not lack of imagination per se, but what you are describing: a failure to employ his widest range of powers to their fullest.
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