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Author Topic: What Post-Crisis elements would you KEEP?  (Read 24796 times)
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lastkryptonianhere
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2005, 04:11:51 AM »

Keepers:

Maxima for sure - a hot red head who can kick major butt

John Henry Irons - scientific genius, ally and friend (undecided about Steel however - never really liked the character outside of the JLA run)

Superman/Wonder Woman/Lois Lane relationship - makes perfect sense to me that both ladies would appeal to Superman and that Superman would appeal to both ladies
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NotSuper
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2005, 05:53:55 AM »

Things I'd keep:

Steel - This one is a given. Steel was always my favorite of the Supermen during the "Reign of the Supermen" storyline. In fact, the character actually got me to collect Superman comics regularly. Looking back now, the whole storyline doesn't seem as good to me, but it certainly did when I was a kid.

Superboy - A controversial thing to keep, but I like the new half Superman/half Luthor storyline. I'll always prefer Kal as Superboy, but Kon's started to grow on me. Like a lot of characters, he just needs a good writer.

Manchester Black - Probably the best Superman villain created AFTER the reboot. He's like the Iron Age in human form--that fact makes him a perfect foe for Superman. Superman causing him to cry was just great.

Maxima - I like Maxima for reasons that have already been mentioned. Truly a three-dimensional character.

Maggie Sawyer - A strong female character who also happens to be gay.

Ron Troupe - Ron kind of reminds me of what Clark Kent would be like if he wasn't really Superman.
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RedSunOfKrypton
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2005, 09:42:54 PM »

The aura, in tandem with his physical invulnerability. I just like it.

I like it better that Clark didn't become Superman until he was a man and that Conner exists as Superboy.

Green K is enough for me, too much kryptonite becomes too much hack-writing-crutch.

Birthright Lex only leaning towards his less evil showings, a super-genius businessman who just kinda looks at the world almost as if it's a big game to him and exists to keep Superman in check. I don't like this President Luthor garbage, or him killing innocent karate instructors "just to prove to you I could".

Steel, definitely, I agree about him being the morality Superman's lost over the years.
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"...and as the fledgeling Man of Steel looks for the first time over the skyline of this city, this, Metropolis, he utters the syllables with which history is made and legends are forged: This, looks like a job...for Superman."
Gernot
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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2005, 11:32:01 PM »

If we would keep Luthor as a businessman, then I say let's keep Conduit, too!  We NEED a supervillian powerful enough to take on Superman, with his vast organization, Pipeline.  Just take his knowledge of Clark Kent = Superman away from him, and he'll be allowed to survive.  (I've always thought Conduit could have been Bronze Age Luthor in the Post-Crisis Age.)

Oh, and someone mentioned Jeph Loeb bringing back the multi-colored Kryptonite...  Loeb didn't bring it back!  Red Kryptonite was re-introduced back in 1991 or 1992 by Mr. Mxyzptlk!  Again by Batman in JLA!  

I do wish they'd bring back Kal-El = Superboy, though.  Superman DESERVES to have been a hero his entire life!  

I'm on the fence about Ma and Pa Kent, though.  I kind'a wish they'd died of old age or something when Superman was a young man.
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RedSunOfKrypton
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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2005, 01:13:46 AM »

I like Ma and Pa Kent, then again that may just be the Smallvillian in me talking.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2005, 04:23:05 AM »

Quote from: "RedSunOfKrypton"
I like Ma and Pa Kent, then again that may just be the Smallvillian in me talking.


You know, it's really funny how when the litany of things that were desecrated by the revisionists are brought out (the lack of tragedy over the destruction of Krypton, Superman's whininess and comitting of murder, Lois as a hateful female dog, etc.) nobody ever mentions Ma and Pa Kent being alive as one of the downsides.

There are some things that are absolutely necessary to Superman:

1) The tragic loss of a home planet, which makes Superman sympathetic because of his loneliness;

2) Superman's correct characterization as being confident, fearless, never in doubt, and morally perfect and incorruptible. Anything else about Superman's character can vary except this; notice how different Christopher Reeves's understated, impish sense of humor contrasts with George Reeve's 50s paternalism.

3) Clark Kent as loser/failure, to create a point of sympathy with the audience.

Apart from this, one can argue that everything else about Superman is details.

Some prefer Superman with a higher power level (I know I do) because it makes stories about dilemmas and choices and allow for certain types of stories that wouldn't otherwise be possible (time travel and space travel stories, for example). Others prefer Superman lower-powered, to make certain types of conflicts possible. I can see the value in both perspectives; but neither are essential to who Superman is.

Someone a while back once shrieked in horror about a black woman playing Lois Lane in the next film. I for one, think this is a neat idea, as long as Lois is still demonstratably Lois: raspy, assertive, and nosy.

Superman's Earth Parents are peripheral figures to the story. It doesn't really MATTER if they're alive or dead. Superman's *real* parents, whose sacrifice and love defined Superman, are the more important figures.

As a matter of personal opinion, I think they're better off dead. Superman is never worse than when the writers characterize him as a dumb farm boy, ending his sentences with "Well, Momma always said..." basically, making him into Forrest Gump with Heat-Vision. The current SUPERMAN/BATMAN story arc is particularly loathesome when it comes to this. Superman is "the Man of Tomorrow." His character is futuristic, not pastoralistic. Superman isn't a farm boy. This is missing the point about the role Smallville has in the Superman story. He grew up on a farm, but the impact of that on his character is that he had a place to develop, test his powers, and begin his superpowered career in isolation. If Superman grew up in a small town in Alaska or a town in the Mojave Desert, it would be equivalent to Smallville, because the *point* of Smallville is not to give Superman a permanent "hick" characterization, but to be an environment that is separate from the sped up world outside, a "womb to hide him from the outside world," as Elliot S. Maggin put it.
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King Krypton
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2005, 08:01:37 AM »

Quote
Someone a while back once shrieked in horror about a black woman playing Lois Lane in the next film. I for one, think this is a neat idea, as long as Lois is still demonstratably Lois: raspy, assertive, and nosy.


The problem was not necessarily so much that Lois would be black as it was who was going to play her: Beyonce Knowles of Destiny's Child. Jon Peters, JJ Abrams, and McG wanted the flavors of the moment when they were pushing their "Krypton doesn't blow up and Lex is Kryptonian in some way or another" script. Beyonce would be wrong for Lois in ANY Superman movie, let alone one that was already deliberately destroying the very fundamentals of the mythos. People like Vivica Fox, Nona Gaye, Victoria Rowell, and other actresses of credibility could have played Lois and pulled it off. Even Aaliyah Haughton, the late singer-actress, had solid enough chops (and a whole lot of classic Lois Lane-style beauty) to carry it off. Beyonce doesn't have the acting skills for it. That, to me, was the problem. A black Lois doesn't bother me at all so long as whoever plays her has what it takes to do right by the character. Beyonce did not, and was purely pursued for her MTV hot-ticket status.

(Of course, Ashton Kutcher, Justin Timberlake, and Jake Gyllenhaal were also pursued to play Superman--Timberlake previously being a Jimmy candidate--for the exact same reasons, with Brandon Routh being rejected by McG in a perfunctory round of screen tests. So this ain't anything new.)

As for the Kents surviving into Clark's adulthood...the comics HAVE and still do use them as a crutch to keep Clark tied to Smallville as the farm boy in tights. The animated series avoided this by keeping their roles to a minimum, which made their survivial work. They weren't a constant presence, so an occasional visit wasn't a problem. But in the comics, they serve no purpose other than to ensure that Clark never grows away from the farm, that he never becomes more than just a Kansas Peter Parker.

In that respect, they were better off dead, because their deaths gave them a real meaning and made Clark a man. By dying, they became the second family Clark lost, and their deaths taught him that for all his powers, Superman can never defeat death. So yeah, I have to admit I prefer them dead, simply because Superman finally becomes who and what he was meant to be as a result. With them being alive and always being in the stories, Clark's nothing but a Smallville hick. Which is what Byrne intended, of course, but it ain't what Siegel and Shuster wanted.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2005, 12:37:18 PM »

Quote from: "King Krypton"
The problem was not necessarily so much that Lois would be black as it was who was going to play her: Beyonce Knowles of Destiny's Child. Jon Peters, JJ Abrams, and McG wanted the flavors of the moment when they were pushing their "Krypton doesn't blow up and Lex is Kryptonian in some way or another" script. Beyonce would be wrong for Lois in ANY Superman movie, let alone one that was already deliberately destroying the very fundamentals of the mythos.
(Of course, Ashton Kutcher, Justin Timberlake, and Jake Gyllenhaal were also pursued to play Superman--Timberlake previously being a Jimmy candidate--for the exact same reasons, with Brandon Routh being rejected by McG in a perfunctory round of screen tests. So this ain't anything new.)


Well, if it was an underqualified pop star pursued for her "name" status, that's different. (I didn't know any names, just the idea itself.) Remember back in the 70s when Bruce Jenner wanted to play Superman? Stick to the running, Brucey.

Quote from: "King Krypton"
As for the Kents surviving into Clark's adulthood...the comics HAVE and still do use them as a crutch to keep Clark tied to Smallville as the farm boy in tights. The animated series avoided this by keeping their roles to a minimum, which made their survivial work. They weren't a constant presence, so an occasional visit wasn't a problem. But in the comics, they serve no purpose other than to ensure that Clark never grows away from the farm, that he never becomes more than just a Kansas Peter Parker.

In that respect, they were better off dead, because their deaths gave them a real meaning and made Clark a man. By dying, they became the second family Clark lost, and their deaths taught him that for all his powers, Superman can never defeat death. So yeah, I have to admit I prefer them dead, simply because Superman finally becomes who and what he was meant to be as a result. With them being alive and always being in the stories, Clark's nothing but a Smallville hick. Which is what Byrne intended, of course, but it ain't what Siegel and Shuster wanted.


Okay, granted, I live in Miami (aka "New Sodom") and I've never been on a farm in my entire life, but at least from what I read in PARADE magazine...don't people in farm country these days have celphones and sattellite television? So, isn't the "hayseed town" stereotype innaccurate in this day and age? Combine it with Pa Kent's honest, simple "folk wisdom" and not only is it an innaccurate stereotype, but a fairly condescending one as well.

All good points, King Krypton. The more I think about it, the more I think the Kents ought to stay dead. Not because their death was a tragedy that defined Superman (Superman already has ONE big tragedy that defines him; more than that is really redundant overkill) but because their presence allows Superman to be characterized in a way that is wildly innaccurate (and fairly annoying).

It's not that I object to the Kent's survival in and of itself, but the purpose of their survival: to establish Superman as a product of the earth "saved" from a "shameful" Kryptonian legacy, distorting the role of Smallville as a "womb" to allow Superboy to grow and develop away from the world's prying eyes, to the dominant aspect of the Super-Mythos. Smallville isn't that; Krypton IS.

One peripheral advantage to the Kents' being dead, is that the Clark Kent character is suddenly very lonely; if he has a warm, loving Earth family to act as a support safety net that he can go back to at any point. Heck, why not make Superman's Earth family a giant 140 member Cajun clan in Louisiana?
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