What Post-Crisis elements would you KEEP?

[MatterEaterLad]

Sure, Ma and Pa Kent are younger,  a nod the younger generation that the show is trying to reach, I suppose -- but since Superman originally left Smallville after they died makes its not so different...

I like the adult Superman in Metropolis as a superhero who is trying to change the world because he was orphaned once again...

[King Krypton]

The problem was not necessarily so much that Lois would be black as it was who was going to play her: Beyonce Knowles of Destiny's Child. Jon Peters, JJ Abrams, and McG wanted the flavors of the moment when they were pushing their "Krypton doesn't blow up and Lex is Kryptonian in some way or another" script. Beyonce would be wrong for Lois in ANY Superman movie, let alone one that was already deliberately destroying the very fundamentals of the mythos.
(Of course, Ashton Kutcher, Justin Timberlake, and Jake Gyllenhaal were also pursued to play Superman--Timberlake previously being a Jimmy candidate--for the exact same reasons, with Brandon Routh being rejected by McG in a perfunctory round of screen tests. So this ain't anything new.)

Well, if it was an underqualified pop star pursued for her "name" status, that's different. (I didn't know any names, just the idea itself.) Remember back in the 70s when Bruce Jenner wanted to play Superman? Stick to the running, Brucey.

Would now be a good time to mention that he bombed in his screen test? Once the filmmakers saw him on film, they knew he didn't have the chops for it. He later did get a film role...Can't Stop the Music with the Village People. And we all know how THAT film went over....

The thing with Beyonce Knowles as Lois (which came dangerously close to happening) is that it pretty much reflects the whole mindset behind the film pre-Singer. Sean Penn, Nicolas Cage, Ralph Fiennes (Burton's pet choice for the role--he wanted Cage fired at all costs), Russell Crowe, Brendan Fraser, Will Smith (briefly considered by Peters), Ashton Kutcher, Justin Timberlake, Paul Walker, Josh Hartnett, Joe Millionaire's Evan Marriott, and Jake Gyllenhaal were all pursued not because they were even remotely right for the part, but because they were the hot boys of the moment at the time they were considered. Jim Caviezel wasn't even a coinsideration until The Passion started generating controversy midway thru shooting; it took being at the eye of the storm on that film for him to even be thought of as a possible Superman (and even then he was passed over in favor of the MTV guys). Otherwise the attitude was "Get the hot boy of the moment." And it extended to the rest of the casting, too. Chris Rock as Jimmy Olsen during the Burton era? He was the hot ticket of the time, and Burton thought Rock's stage persona would be just the thing to help him sell his "reinvention" of not only Superman, but the supporting characters as well.

Nearly everyone who was seriously considered from 1993-2004 was underqualified and sought out purely for name value. Only Caviezel stuck it out and pursued the role right to the bitter end. The planned casting of Beyonce Knowles as Lois is no different from this. As it is, Burton wanted Cameron Diaz in the role, and she's no more Lois than Beyonce is. (I'm withholding judgment on Kate Bosworth until I see Superman Returns.) We almost got Jim Carrey or Tim Allen as Brainiac under Burton (and Allen was a handshake deal awaiting completion), too, and while I like both actors, neither of them are remotely Brainiac.

[Gary]

If we would keep Luthor as a businessman, then I say let's keep Conduit, too!  We NEED a supervillian powerful enough to take on Superman, with his vast organization, Pipeline.  Just take his knowledge of Clark Kent = Superman away from him, and he'll be allowed to survive.  (I've always thought Conduit could have been Bronze Age Luthor in the Post-Crisis Age.)

Gotta disagree with you here. I'm not one of those who generally dislikes the post-Crisis Supey, but I found Condimwit to be a pretty lame villain. Anyone whose main motivation seems to be that Clark used to beat him at football really needs to be smacked upside the head and told to get a life.

On the other tentacle, IMO a villain who knows Superman's secret ID is a good idea, because it raises the stakes. That's why (again IMO) the Condimwit stories worked in spite of the whiny, annoying villain. I really liked one scene where Lois goads the big S into going into a diner for a cup of coffee, as Superman, to prove to him just how much he really needs his Clark identity. I'd hope that if they had a villain who knew Supe's secret then they wouldn't take the predictable route of having this person die accidentally. Better that they come up with a reason why this person doesn't blab the secret to anyone who'll listen, or why nobody will believe him/her if he/she does.

[nightwing]

I alway feel funny saying the Kents should be dead, because they're nice folks.   But they should be.

One of the huge problems with post-Crisis Supes, at least back when I read the books, is that he kept going back to Ma and Pa for advice on what to do.  It's a time-honored element of heroic mythology that the hero must lose his parents (or at least his father) before he can become a man, much less a hero.  Post-Crisis continuity shows us why.

Maybe it's too much to ask in the Modern Age to have a Superman who always knows right from wrong (?).  But could we at least get one who doesn't need to check in with Mommy and Daddy?

Much as I dislike post-Crisis Batman, I can see why he so often wants to kick Clark's rear end.

[Captain Kal]

Interestingly, when Guy Gardner left the Hell Gorge, he said pretty much the same thing to Superman.

"You're Superman.  Act like it."

[lonewolf23k]

Here are my choices:

Maxima: Definetly a keeper..  A villainess who's primary goal is making Superman into her boytoy/spermbank?  Brilliant!  Like an Evil counterpart to Lois Lane..  

Lobo: I also think he makes for a great Superman baddie..  Only I'd emphasize his Bounty Hunter/Mercenary aspects a bit more, along with his sense of rivalry with Superman..  Like Boba Fett combined with Vegeta.

Doomsday: I'd keep him as one of the few creatures in the Universe actually STRONGER then Superman..  ...Forcing Superman to use his super-intelligence to defeat him.  Kind of like Hulk taken to the Super-Extreme.

Steel: Black Superheroes are always a good thing, especially the smart ones.  I'd emphasize his intelligence a lot more, and I'd actually make him one of the few humans on Earth capable of figuring out Kryptonian tech, making him a valuable ally.   ...And his Steel powersuit would be built in part using Kryptonian technology..

Superboy: I'd keep Kon-El, only revising his origin to making him an exact clone of Superman, created by either Lex or Brainiac (or both) in an attempt at creating an improved version of Bizarro..  Of course, it goes wrong, the clone breaks out of his cloning tank before he's full grown and mentally programmed, has some misadventures, then after he encounters Superman, gets adopted as Superman's "little brother" Superboy.  Mayhem Ensues..

Lex Luthor as a corporate baddie: I think the Animated Universe did this best, with Lex being both a corporate villain and a techno-genius.  Let's face it, a smart Mad Scientist would use his inventions to legally make a fortune, and then use that fortune for evil...

Manchester Black: I also like the idea of keeping him and the Elite around for a clash of ideology with Superman..  Bloodthirsty vigilantes do NOT Superheroes make.  And the Elite should routinely get their bloodthirsty butts kicked by the Noble Superman Family..

Ma and Pa Kent: I also like the idea of them still being alive, giving Clark/Kal-El someone to confide in.  You don't have to lose your parents to become a Man, you just need to distance yourself slightly..  ...Doesn't mean you have to lose touch completly.

Lois Lane knowing Clark's identity: Maybe not at first, but I do like the idea of Lois figuring out Superman's secret identity..   ...And then keeping it to herself, while having fun messing with the guy's mind, making him think she can't make up her mind whether she likes Clark or Superman more.  (Of course, it wouldn't be mean-spirited, and she'd secretly help him maintain his secret..)

Kelex, Superman's Butler Robot: also a keeper..  I do like the idea of Superman's Forteress of Solitude having a fussy robotic caretaker for when Superman's not around, charged with keeping the many wonders of the Forteress in tip-top shape.  I see him as something of a robotic counterpart to Alfred, only with a staff of numerous Superman Robots to help with the heavy lifting.

[Johnny Nevada]

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Okay, granted, I live in Miami (aka "New Sodom") and I've never been on a farm in my entire life, but at least from what I read in PARADE magazine...don't people in farm country these days have celphones and sattellite television? So, isn't the "hayseed town" stereotype innaccurate in this day and age? Combine it with Pa Kent's honest, simple "folk wisdom" and not only is it an innaccurate stereotype, but a fairly condescending one as well.
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I grew up in a small city in Indiana near "farm country"... but even back in my teen years (the late 80's and early 90's, when I guess at this point in time, a 30-year-old Superman's teen years would've taken place as well), country kids had computers and cable TV (or big satellite dishes) if they were wired for it. Sure present-day farm country people use cell phones, and often have minidishes (no need to worry about being wired for cable).

Of course, if we brought back the idea of the Kents owning a general store of some sort in Clark's teen years, there'd be more opportunities to show them adapting to selling new technologies (to "keep up with the times" and try to stay viable against, say, Smallville's area getting its first mall or Wal-Mart or something)---maybe a minor plot point about the day the Kents decided to start selling PCs? Or thought renting videos to the general store customers might be a viable venture to pursue?

(Yes, even in the 80's, the general store was a dated concept... though guess the Kents could consider converting it to a hardware store, small department store or even a convenience store (!) as a plot point to pursue...).

>>Re: a 140-member family: Why am I imagining "The Superman from the Bayou!" or "The Day Pa Kent Became the Ragin' Cajun!" as storylines? :-)

[JulianPerez]

I don't know about Manchester Black being something worth keeping.

There are several types of stories that have been done to death in the Modern Age as often as the "hey, that Phantom Zone criminal is my exact double" or "Lois and Lana get powers" stories were overused in the Silver Age.

They are as follows:

1) The "Heroes Take Over Earth and go insane with power" story.
Where it can be Seen: MIRACLEMAN, RED SON, SQUADRON SUPREME, THE AUTHORITY, KINGDOM COME, probably more that for the Love of God, I can't even remember because the plot is a xerox on one of the stories above. It also is wildly improbable: the "power corrupts" theme only works on characters that can be corrupted, and can anyone see the decent, morally incorruptible Superman yielding to ANY kind of temptation, power or otherwise? Can anybody see Superman or any of the other "serve and protect" Silver Age DC heroes ordering executions or turning dissidents into mindless zombies? No way!

2) The "Old Superheroes come out of retirement because of dystopian future" story.
Where it can be Seen: WATCHMEN, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, Keith Giffen's disastrous LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES, KINGDOM COME.

3) The "Optimistic, cheery 50s future that you previously saw is now a Cyberpunk-esque dystopia" story.
Where it can be Seen: MAN OF STEEL, HAWKWORLD, Keith Giffen's LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES, SWAMP THING tales featuring Adam Strange, Howard Chaykin's TWILIGHT

4) The "Silver Age gets Revenge" story.
Where it can be Seen: KINGDOM COME, KNIGHTFALL, the recent JSA story arc with Black Adam, the Manchester Black story arc in Superman.
In this story, young, violent or results oriented heroes go too far and get their backsides kicked by Silver Age guys that have an old school "serve and protect" ethos. While I agree with the intent (the Modern Age needs to get its ass kicked but good), this overt metaphor has all the subtlety of a tack hammer to the stomach. Because they stem from the author's blatant fannish proxy revenge fantasy, it is essentially as immature as a self-insertion fanfic where a Mary or Marty Sue beat up all their bullies in High School. Want to bring back the Silver Age? Write stories with the same professionalism, imaginative power, and consistent characterization as the works of Cary Bates, Steve Englehart, Edmund Hamilton, Bill Mantlo, Don MacGregor, Jack Kirby, and Elliot S! Maggin.

(Note that KINGDOM COME has three of the four above stories in one, making it possibly the most cliche comic of the entire Modern Age. Combine that also with the equally cliche, inappropriate and innacurate comparison of 20th Century superhero characters to mythological deities.)

What does all this have to do with Manchester Black being something that ought not to be kept after the current age is over?

By definition, any Superman story he participates in as the central antagonist becomes a "Silver Age gets Revenge" story.