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Author Topic: What Post-Crisis elements would you KEEP?  (Read 24794 times)
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2005, 10:45:47 PM »

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Combine that also with the equally cliche, inappropriate and innacurate comparison of 20th Century superhero characters to mythological deities.)


This all comes from Stan Lee saying that Comic Superheroes are modern Mythology and the fact that Superheroes have borrowed so much from the myths of old right from the very beginning to today's "heroes".

A small sample:

Superman - Small infant in danger of being killed is sent off in a basket and is adopted and grows up to be a hero.  This origin is used in many different mythologies, but since his creators were Jewish, Moses is the key one here. They also stated that they wanted to created a modern version of Samson. In the sliver age, Superman powers are the same as Jason and the Argonauts rolled into one:

Super Speed: Euphemos
Flight: Kalais and Zetes
Invulnerability: Kaineus
Super Strength: Herakles
X-Ray vision: Lynkeus

You get the idea Smiley

Prince Namor the Sub-Mariner - Stories of Mermaids and Mermans as well as the lost city of Atlantis influenced his creation.

Captain Marvel - Gets his powers from the gods and other mythological characters.

Flash - There is a famous old statue of the Roman god Mercury that looks just like the Golden Age Flash, same sandals and same hat, also Mercury was known for his super speed as one of his main powers.

Green Lantern - Getting superpowers from a Ring comes from Norse Mythology. Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen is a famous example of using this theme and Lord of the Rings was also inspired by these legends of powerful rings.

The Spectre - Is an Angel.

Wonder Woman - Is an Amazon from Greek Mythology.

Aquaman - See Namor Wink

Superman's Hercules, Samson, Goliath direct revisions of mythological characters.

Marvel's Thor and Hercules are direct revisions of gods and mythological characters.

Comet the Superhorse - Is a Centaur from Greek Mythology.

Jack Kirby's Fourth World - nuff said Wink


There are a lot more that I didn't write about here, like a said just a small sample.

So the comparison is not without merit, however I studied Mythology a lot and I know that comic book Mythology is an extremely simplified version of the real deal just like the film versions. However, for what it is worth, they have been connected from the very beginning.
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2005, 11:44:10 PM »

Today, I had an idea for reinventing Brainiac...  Which I suppose could fit in this thread...

This concept keeps the idea of Brainiac once being a living Coluan named Vril Dox, but alters it a bit: This version of Vril Dox, because of his genius, quickly rose to the ranks of the Computer Tyrants' servants, and was rewarded with the greatest of gifts: Being turned into a Cyborg.

The newly reconstructed Cyborg Vril Dox was renamed, granting himself a Coluan name which roughly translates into "Brainiac" in English; his enhancements granted him even greater levels of intelligence, but also digitizing his mind, turning him into a living computer program: a "Ghost", to use Transhuman terms..

Brainiac was then tasked with leaving Colu to gather information on neighboring star systems..  During these travels, Vril's son eventually led a rebellion to overthrow the Computer Tyrants, unwittingly releasing Brainiac from his obligations to them.  The now freed Brainiac decided to take advantage of his freedom and powers to continue his pursuits of science and engineering, with the Universe as his personal laboratory..

Brainiac's motivations are simple: cold, calculating pursuit of knowledge, at any cost.  He's essentially a scientific researcher with insatiable curiosity, incredible resources, and absolutly no ethics.  He could drop a series of radioactive isotope meteors on a heavily populated world simply because he wants to know how it's inhabitants would react to the increased radiation...

Power-wise, the Animated Universe basically has it right: sturdy cybernetic bodies capable of going toe-to-toe with Superman, although the Real Brainiac would be a disembodied intelligence capable of transmitting itself from body to body (I'm having fun with the idea of using the skeletal mecha-brainiac as one of Brainiac's "Combat Bodies").  Furthermore, Brainiac's genius would allow him to design numerous devices capable of challenging Superman, from ultra-tech weapons and hordes of battlerobots to more exotic devices like mind-control nanites..

So..  Opinions?
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2005, 09:45:51 AM »

As long as Brainiac is some form of artificial life, intelligent, and obsessed with knowledge and is amoral in the pursuit of it, that's fine by me. Your idea shows that you at least know who Brainiac is. You spent some space giving thought to Brainiac's motivation and that's more than I can say for many writers these days. The fact he was once human gives a degree of irony to Brainiac's contempt for organic intellects. And you have created a framework to use that neat mecha-Brainiac structure seen in the 1980s, as well as the stuff Brainiac got in the Animated Series.

Brainiac was my favorite villain, and part of the reason I never liked LOIS & CLARK is because he never showed up. (That, and the fact they used Byrne's apocryphal, clueless, fraudulent variation, and for the love of God, Sherman Helmsley as the Toyman! But I digress.)

Being a fan of "classic" Superman, I'd love to see Brainiac shrink cities - so much mileage was gotten out of "The Greatest Crime in the Universe," the Shrinking and theft of Kandor. If you have him use his distinctive weapon of choice - the Shrink Ray, and that neat skull head ship, I'm sure it'll work out.

Although I don't buy the business about robot bodies tough enough to stand up to Superman. The Brainiac on the show could stand up to *animated* Superman, who is a gigantic wuss, who is knocked flat on his cape by a manhole cover booby charged with an electrical current. But that doesn't mean you are denied interesting fight scenes. If Brainiac can download himself into several robots at a time, he can overwhelm Superman by force of numbers.



As for the business about Stan Lee comparing comics to modern mythology...well, let's just say Stan Lee only compared HIS comics to modern mythology, if you get my drift. That guy was a genius at inventive selling. "Watch OUT, Cats and KITTENS! This is surely the supremest sizzlin' saga since Shakespeare!" It was so over the top and obviously not serious that it got a lot of attention. Hey, if you're as great as Shakespeare, mythology's like a step up from that, right?

Yes, it is true that superheroes and mythology have a lot in common, as your comparison below indicates (though my memory of Greek Myth fails me - which one of the Argonauts again could travel through time and melt things by looking at them?  Cheesy  ). But the fact that superheroes and mythology are similar do not make them identical. For one thing, superheroes have something that mythological characters do not: they operate according to an idealistic dedication to the greater good. While the figures in myth are charismatic and powerful, they fight for tribal interests and family interests and personal interests and sometimes even selfish and antisocial interests. No mythical character has anything even similar to "the Neverending Battle."

The comparison to gods forgets the fact that gods and sometimes heroes are not three-dimensional personalities: they personify abstract qualities, or alternatively, have personalities that can be summarized in one word, like "wise" or "warlike." Whereas superhero characters *should* have rounded personalities, the more developed, the better.

And the fact that superheroes and myths have things in common does not mean that their comparisons are any less pretentious and shallow. Here's a hint, Grant Morrison: if you name a character after Prometheus to "sound smart," make sure you know who Prometheus actually IS.

Though I wouldn't say that FOURTH WORLD characters were superheroes, any more than I would describe the characters in Roger Zelazny's LORD OF LIGHT that way.

Though the way various comics companies stick to themselves and never interchange does suggest similarities to various mythological cosmos, doesn't it?

Here's who I'd compare them to:

DC Comics = Egyptian Myth. Grandiose. Powerful. Gigantic. Nobody built or thought bigger than the Egyptians. And they were the first, after all. Egyptian myth is filled with chants from the book of the dead and elsewhere, said at the necessary moments in a clockwork cosmos. And has DC ever given us the greatest, most poetic "ritual chants" ever: the GL oath, Superman's "faster than a speeding bullet," or "the Neverending Battle" "criminals are a superstitious, cowardly lot" - phrases that are commonly envoked every day. At the same time, the gods of Egyptian myth were mighty and aroused curiosity, but were unknowable and mysterious, with no clear motivation or human personality. Which comes very close to the DC Heroes, who were mostly written in an era when characterization was less important than plot (and oh, what brilliant plots were created). A friend of mine once argued that the first DC Hero to actually have a personality was Karate Kid in LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES.

Marvel Comics = African Myth. Well, let's see: the greatest heroes are wiseacres and tricksters who achieve not by valor or bravery but by the deliberate reversals of the customs that we're used to. None of them are an Achilles-like paragon of an abstract idea of manliness: there's always something wrong with them; either they're six inches tall while their brothers are giants, or they are a great ironworker, but are lame, or are a great hunter and loving father, but are terribly ugly. And lest we forget, the greatest hero in African myth is a Spider...  :wink:

Image Comics = A dreary, cold, twilight world of perpetual conflict where in the end, evil triumphs and the only force that really matters is how many people you take with you and how much blood you shed. Remind anybody else of Norse myth?

Charleton Comics = Greek Myth. They say that philosophy destroyed the Greek Gods, because Greek thought on the ordered nature of the universe eliminated the need for gods to run everything, creating doubt and atheism. In a related vein, Steve Ditko's "philosophy," or raving "Randroid" pro-free market rah-rahs, disrupted much of the enjoyment of his Charleton Comics for readers that aren't interested in politics with their funnybooks.

America's Best Comics = Hebrew Myth/Judaism. We only worship one God. By astonishing coincidence, so does ABC: Alan Moore. And there are 5 comics in the ABC line, just like the 5 books of the Torah!
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2005, 06:34:03 PM »

Veering off on a tangent here... the moderator might want to split the thread.

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
1) The "Heroes Take Over Earth and go insane with power" story.
Where it can be Seen: MIRACLEMAN, RED SON, SQUADRON SUPREME, THE AUTHORITY, KINGDOM COME, probably more that for the Love of God, I can't even remember because the plot is a xerox on one of the stories above.


MIRACLEMAN is a bit unusual in that the writer (Moore) seemed to view the heroes' takeover as not such a bad thing.

Quote
It also is wildly improbable: the "power corrupts" theme only works on characters that can be corrupted, and can anyone see the decent, morally incorruptible Superman yielding to ANY kind of temptation, power or otherwise? Can anybody see Superman or any of the other "serve and protect" Silver Age DC heroes ordering executions or turning dissidents into mindless zombies? No way!


Well, put in those terms, no, of course not. But in a world whose leadership had become corrupt and incompetent, I could see these heroes tempted towards taking power in order to set things right. Hopefully it would be more like Captain Comet in R.E.B.E.L.S. '95 where the heroes try to incite and enable a popular rebellion rather than taking over directly, but that would depend on circumstances allowing it.

The usual assumption in comics seems to be that the existence of super-powered types doesn't much affect the political landscape of the world at all. Except for fictionalized places like Latveria, you generally have the same people in charge doing most of the same things as in real life. I understand why this is done, but it seems pretty unlikely that it would really happen this way.

Quote
3) The "Optimistic, cheery 50s future that you previously saw is now a Cyberpunk-esque dystopia" story.
Where it can be Seen: MAN OF STEEL, HAWKWORLD, Keith Giffen's LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES, SWAMP THING tales featuring Adam Strange, Howard Chaykin's TWILIGHT


Who was it who said, some things are cliches because they're true? The optimistic, '50s present turned out to be mostly illusion in real life, so it's only natural that popular culture stuff like comics would reflect this.

Re: Man of Steel, it took me a while to figure out that you were referring to that series' treatment of Krypton. MoS' Metropolis certainly isn't all that distopic.

Quote
4) The "Silver Age gets Revenge" story.
Where it can be Seen: KINGDOM COME, KNIGHTFALL, the recent JSA story arc with Black Adam, the Manchester Black story arc in Superman.
In this story, young, violent or results oriented heroes go too far and get their backsides kicked by Silver Age guys that have an old school "serve and protect" ethos. While I agree with the intent (the Modern Age needs to get its %$& kicked but good), this overt metaphor has all the subtlety of a tack hammer to the stomach. Because they stem from the author's blatant fannish proxy revenge fantasy, it is essentially as immature as a self-insertion fanfic where a Mary or Marty Sue beat up all their bullies in High School.


I agree with this. Author wish-fulfillment should have no place in any kind of writing.

Quote
Want to bring back the Silver Age? Write stories with the same professionalism, imaginative power, and consistent characterization as the works of Cary Bates, Steve Englehart, Edmund Hamilton, Bill Mantlo, Don MacGregor, Jack Kirby, and Elliot S! Maggin.


Amen to that!
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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2005, 09:54:07 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
As long as Brainiac is some form of artificial life, intelligent, and obsessed with knowledge and is amoral in the pursuit of it, that's fine by me. Your idea shows that you at least know who Brainiac is. You spent some space giving thought to Brainiac's motivation and that's more than I can say for many writers these days. The fact he was once human gives a degree of irony to Brainiac's contempt for organic intellects. And you have created a framework to use that neat mecha-Brainiac structure seen in the 1980s, as well as the stuff Brainiac got in the Animated Series.

Brainiac was my favorite villain, and part of the reason I never liked LOIS & CLARK is because he never showed up. (That, and the fact they used Byrne's apocryphal, clueless, fraudulent variation, and for the love of God, Sherman Helmsley as the Toyman! But I digress.)


I think the bigger problem with Lois & Clark was that it was just poorly done. Campy writing that makes a joke out of the mythos (without any of the panache or skill of the Adam West Batman, which was crafted with a genuine love of the comics--West and many of the show's writers were lifelong Batman fans), bad acting all around (Dean Cain being the worst Superman to date), total mutilations of the classic characters (Lex Luthor as a Pepe Le Pew type after Lois, Teenybopper Metallo, Cat Grant as a one-dimensional tramp, Perry as an Elvis-obsessed redneck, and so on), bad costume and set designs (Alyn and Reeves' costumes are still miles ahead of Cain's), and truly awful FX even by TV standards. That it used Byrne's template didn't help matters any. LeVine, Singer, Buckner, and the other "creative minds" on the show didn't have the talent to pull off a Superman show, and they certainly didn't have the respect for Superman needed to make it work.

In that respect, it's for the best that Brainiac never showed up.

Quote
Being a fan of "classic" Superman, I'd love to see Brainiac shrink cities - so much mileage was gotten out of "The Greatest Crime in the Universe," the Shrinking and theft of Kandor. If you have him use his distinctive weapon of choice - the Shrink Ray, and that neat skull head ship, I'm sure it'll work out.


The Skull Ship is a classic. The shrinking equipment...depends on how he uses it. If he minaturizes a civilization in order to more easily destroy it, I'm game. But to collect them? I dunno. The murderous, callous Brainiac of the animated series is the best version of the character to date, and I don't see him as the kind of guy who's keep any living organic life-forms around.

Quote
Although I don't buy the business about robot bodies tough enough to stand up to Superman. The Brainiac on the show could stand up to *animated* Superman, who is a gigantic wuss, who is knocked flat on his cape by a manhole cover booby charged with an electrical current.


Max Fleischer's Superman is just as big of a "wuss." He folds like a deck of cards under Lex Luthor's laser hits in the first cartoon (yeah, I know they don't give the scientist a proper name, but some animation historians believe he's Luthor, and I'm inclined to agree with them), he sinks to his knees when bombarded with flame-throwers in "The Mechanical Monsters" and gets the holy heck pounded out of him when he goes to fight back, he gets beaten up by a gorilla in "Terror on the Midway," he gets bashed up by King Tut's minions in "The Mummy Strikes," and he gets knocked out by falling wreckage in several others. ("The Magnetic Telescope" also shows him having a very limited tolerance for electrical energy.) Dini/Timm's Superman is no weaker than that.

Besides, as good as the writing was on that show, Superman being Fleischer-like in his power levels really wasn't an issue for me.

Quote
But that doesn't mean you are denied interesting fight scenes. If Brainiac can download himself into several robots at a time, he can overwhelm Superman by force of numbers.


*smacks self upside the head* Why didn't I think of this when I wrote my Superman movie idea in 1999? I just had Brainiac using electromagnetic energy to power himself up enough to beat Superman within an inch of his life. A whole mess of Brainiac-puppets with this power would be even better.

Anyone mind if I borrow this idea, should I ever decide to revisit that old movie idea?  :lol:

Quote
Power-wise, the Animated Universe basically has it right: sturdy cybernetic bodies capable of going toe-to-toe with Superman, although the Real Brainiac would be a disembodied intelligence capable of transmitting itself from body to body (I'm having fun with the idea of using the skeletal mecha-brainiac as one of Brainiac's "Combat Bodies").


Morrison and Quitely did something like this in JLA: Earth-2, where Brainiac was a disembodied brain with cybernetic enhancements who could control anything and everything within his range. (He was lobotomized by Ultraman at the end.)
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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2005, 10:05:44 PM »

Quote from: "Gary"
MIRACLEMAN is a bit unusual in that the writer (Moore) seemed to view the heroes' takeover as not such a bad thing.


MIRACLEMAN is also a bit unusual in the sense that it was the only one that wasn't totally unbelieveable, but I digress.

That's what I thought the first time I read MIRACLEMAN, but after I read it again, I realized just how unnerving the surviving Miracleman Family members fixing everything really was; it wasn't frightening because the Marvel Family weren't bad people, but there was something about it that Alan Moore took pains to show didn't feel right. There were references to 12 Andy Warhol clones being up and around and making art. Now everybody has the option of Miracleconversion, everybody can be a superhero, but Liz refuses. "Do you know what you're refusing?" Miracleman asks. "Do you know what you're asking me to give up?" She says back. Alex Winter (Miraclebaby) tells her father on returning to earth, "Oh, I see you decided to leave the sky that color, didn't you?" Brrr, it all gave me chills.

Quote from: "Gary"
Who was it who said, some things are cliches because they're true? The optimistic, '50s present turned out to be mostly illusion in real life, so it's only natural that popular culture stuff like comics would reflect this.


True, but that's no excuse for TWILIGHT, which "revised" the DC space heroes as sleazy sex fiends.

And nothing justifies the existence of HAWKWORLD. Yeah, okay, Silver Age Hawkman made no sense if you really think about it from the perspective of a grown adult: he was from a futuristic society, BUT he came to Earth to study Earth "crimefighting techniques," he worked at a museum for some reason, and instead of using rayguns and lightsabers he "borrowed" priceless museum treasures. And he dressed like a bird for some reason. Now, in comes HAWKWORLD - they "fixed" all of the above. Hawkman uses ray guns, came to earth not to study crimefighting techniques but as a spy, and his relationship with Hawkwoman was just a "cover story;" the two really hate each other.

And suddenly you remember what you LIKED about Hawkman in the first place: it was because he didn't make much sense; he had incredible imaginative power. Now, reverse it, and you've got a "grim n' gritty" Hawkworld, suddenly the character is forced in line with "adult" thinking: not only is the character sleazy, grotesque and unrecognizeable, he also isn't terribly original, from a derivative Cyberpunk dystopia of Hawkworld.

If somebody ever does SCIENCE NINJA TEAM GATCHAMAN, removes the bird costumes and gadgetry, and makes them all into black leather suit wearing Ninjas using AK-47s that are the Japanese equivalent of Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six, it would have the same effect: bring the concept more in line with "adult" rationalism but destroying what made the concept work in the first place.

Quote from: "Gary"
Amen to that!


Englehart and Maggin and Mantlo, true geniuses each, deserve all the props they can get.  Cheesy

All this talk of cliche stories brings up one interesting point: whether it's done "right" or not doesn't matter: if you're using this story, you're being cliche. Innovation does matter. Being original is important. The reason the SWAMP THING issues of Adam Strange were great while the other stories I mentioned were worthless is that they brought a fresh, new perspective to Adam Strange and his world and did it differently than the others did.

For that reason, Warren Ellis deserves all the contempt and scorn we can muster for his blatant acts of gunpoint intellectual mugging (ooops, I'm sorry, I mean "homages"): his highway robbery of Doc Savage and Tarzan, and his use of an obvious JLA analogue because his impoverished imagination couldn't come up with anything better.
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2005, 12:02:11 AM »

Quote from: "King Krypton"
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Being a fan of "classic" Superman, I'd love to see Brainiac shrink cities - so much mileage was gotten out of "The Greatest Crime in the Universe," the Shrinking and theft of Kandor. If you have him use his distinctive weapon of choice - the Shrink Ray, and that neat skull head ship, I'm sure it'll work out.


The Skull Ship is a classic. The shrinking equipment...depends on how he uses it. If he minaturizes a civilization in order to more easily destroy it, I'm game. But to collect them? I dunno. The murderous, callous Brainiac of the animated series is the best version of the character to date, and I don't see him as the kind of guy who's keep any living organic life-forms around.


Well, on a purely scientific standpoint, it would make sense for Brainiac to collect "samples" of interesting civilisations he encounters for further studies, as well as to experiment on it's inhabitants.  I see him as the kind of guy who'd introduce a new type of locust he encountered on a new world to one of his bottled societies, just to study the infestation's effects on the society's economic structures.

I'm the kind of guy who looks at comic book villains and tries to figure out what they represent in symbolic terms.  In Lex Luthor's case, it's simply Human Hubris taken to extremes: the brilliant man who wants to topple the gods (or the Superman) simply because he can't stand that there's someone better then him.

In Brainiac's case, I see the symbolism being "Technology Overcoming Humanity".  Cold Logical Efficiency replacing Human Compassion.  In short, the perfect motivations for anything he'd do are "Scientific Curiosity" and "increasing efficiency"..  

Anyways, back on the topic of Bottled Cities and Shrink Rays..  I'm of two minds on the subject: On one hand, there's nothing quite like the classic Shrink Ray for Four-Color Superhero Coolness, and it'd be nice to have the classic Kandor back.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for "updating" the classics, and I do like the idea of Kandor being inside a "dimensional pocket" to give a modern, plausible explanation for it.

One idea I tinkered with was for Kandor and the other cities to be "Digitized", as in zapped by some ultra-tech scanner weapon and reduced to the state of virtual simulations..  Of course, the bonus would be that it fits the "Living Computer" concept even more then the shrink ray.
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2005, 12:04:07 AM »

Quote from: "King Krypton"
Max Fleischer's Superman is just as big of a "wuss." He folds like a deck of cards under Lex Luthor's laser hits in the first cartoon (yeah, I know they don't give the scientist a proper name, but some animation historians believe he's Luthor, and I'm inclined to agree with them), he sinks to his knees when bombarded with flame-throwers in "The Mechanical Monsters" and gets the holy heck pounded out of him when he goes to fight back, he gets beaten up by a gorilla in "Terror on the Midway," he gets bashed up by King Tut's minions in "The Mummy Strikes," and he gets knocked out by falling wreckage in several others. ("The Magnetic Telescope" also shows him having a very limited tolerance for electrical energy.) Dini/Timm's Superman is no weaker than that.

Besides, as good as the writing was on that show, Superman being Fleischer-like in his power levels really wasn't an issue for me.


Hey, settle down!  Cheesy  I love the Fleischer cartoons (made, incidentally, in my hometown, Miami) and the Animated Series. I was just making the point that what's good for the goose is not good for the gander.

That is to say, just because a big mean Brainiac robot could challenge Superman in the animated series doesn't mean that this should also be true of characters in other media, especially the comics.
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