"High" Power Level vs. "Low" Power Level

[NotSuper]

I've been tossing around the idea of Superman not getting his powers from a yellow sun in my head. This would mean that the Kryptonians would have had the same powers as Superman on their own planet, they'd get their powers through years of genetic engineering. "How would that work," you may ask, "wouldn't they just fly away when Krypton was going to explode?" No, they wouldn't fly away because they wouldn't be able to leave their planet. That's right, I'm proposing that the Kryptonians be genetically bonded with their planet. This would be different from the post-Crisis version in that the Kryptonians wouldn't know why they're stuck on their planet. The Raoists would put forth the theory that Rao (the sun itself) was displeased by Krypton and made them unable to leave their home. A more rational theory would be that the Daxamites who seeded the planet put a flaw in the genetic structures of the first Kryptonians (they didn't want them leaving).

Does this mean that Superman will be the last of his race? No, it doesn't. You could still have Kara (with Power Girl's origin) and Kandor (if you wanted it). The Phantom Zone criminals might get the shaft here, though.

[Gary]

When I get back home, I'll post all the references to grav vs solar powers that indicate Kal did still have some powers due to purely grav influences.  The most glaring that comes to mind was Action Comics #500 when Luthor's red sun lamp neutralized the solar aspect but Superman was still fighting with his vestigial grav super-strength (switching off the lamp let Superman knock Luthor out with the slightest flick of his finger when the armed Luthor couldn't be taken down with full punches of grav strength indicating the ratio of grav to solar strength is on the order of 1:20 million).

There's another story from about the same time where Vandal Savage changed history, or created an alternate timeline, or something like that to make himself dictator of Earth. Superman was hoodwinked into supporting him, while Jimmy Olsen was a rebel. So Jimmy attacked Supes inside a robot-vehicle that carried its own red sun lamp. I think Supey said something like "Red suns don't neutralize all of my powers! And all I need is half my super-strength to deal with you!"

I think this is the comic.

[Captain Kal]

Right you are, Gary.  That was indeed one of the stories I was going to reference.

And Jimmy retorted, "What good are muscles when we've weakened your invulnerability?" [*KLONG* as 50-ton battle-robot stomps Superman into the ground.]

A DCCP story with the Metal Men has I.Q. mucking with the Sun so Superman's solar-based powers stopped working but his purely muscular ones like flight, strength, speed, some degree of invulnerability still worked.

In the original Superman series (now Adventures of Superman), the Parasite tricked him into thinking his powers were growing out of control when he really stole Superman's holding back reflex.  Superman coated his body with a yellow sun screening lotion that only allowed red sun rays to hit his body to weaken himself back to normal range.  That suggests even under pure red solar radiation, Superman would have his normal power levels from grav alone.

A team-up with the E-2 Superman: The E-2 Luthor attacked E-1 Superman with grav cables that duplicated the gravity of Krypton to trap Superman.  He mused that the cables cut his powers by about half.

I'll give the exact issues, dates, and writers when I get to my books later tonight.

[Captain Kal]

I've been tossing around the idea of Superman not getting his powers from a yellow sun in my head. This would mean that the Kryptonians would have had the same powers as Superman on their own planet, they'd get their powers through years of genetic engineering. "How would that work," you may ask, "wouldn't they just fly away when Krypton was going to explode?" No, they wouldn't fly away because they wouldn't be able to leave their planet. That's right, I'm proposing that the Kryptonians be genetically bonded with their planet. This would be different from the post-Crisis version in that the Kryptonians wouldn't know why they're stuck on their planet. The Raoists would put forth the theory that Rao (the sun itself) was displeased by Krypton and made them unable to leave their home. A more rational theory would be that the Daxamites who seeded the planet put a flaw in the genetic structures of the first Kryptonians (they didn't want them leaving).

Does this mean that Superman will be the last of his race? No, it doesn't. You could still have Kara (with Power Girl's origin) and Kandor (if you wanted it). The Phantom Zone criminals might get the shaft here, though.

That's an interesting take, NotSuper.

But that would imply that their natural invulnerability was somewhere below Krypton-shattering levels or else a mere planetary explosion wouldn't kill them.

One of the chief reasons Kryptonians were changed from having native powers was not only being able to fly away to escape the explosion, but they would be invulnerable to it in the first place.

Of course, the energies to destroy a giant world like Krypton would be far greater than those needed to destroy a more modest planet like Earth, so maybe that's an out here.

I guess depending on the genetic bonding to the planet, that could be another out as well.  If the destroyed planet ceased to have the characteristics their bodies were genetically keyed to, then they'd all die in space despite being otherwise invulnerable.

[MatterEaterLad]

I'm kind of doubtful that a magic bullet explanation will ever work, it was completely conceivable that beings that "no less than a bursting shell could penetrate their skin" would have perished in a planetary explosion...these natural evolutions are inevitable, and show that continuity is always in flux...as for me, they are just interesting...

[TELLE]

However the "true" nature of Superman's powers are resolved (and our best scientific minds should continue to work on it), my feelings, in rambling form, about the "on-topic" subject of this thread are this:

Whether from habit, nostalgia or wishful thinking, I think that the higher powered Superman (ie, pre-Crisis) is better.  Ridiculous niggling details, like the need for an air-supply in outer space --which says to me, "we don't know exactly how all his flying/vision powers work, but he must need oxygen!" --are aesthetically retarded and do a dishonour to the concept/character.  That sort of thing is the triumph of the fan/nerd over storytelling.

In the context of Superman's relation to other Earth heroes, it seems to me that aside from being the most "morally" powerful, he should also be the most physically powerful (vs various relative Johny-come-latelys as Green Lantern --I'll make an exception for the Spectre, in a sense the magical counterpart of Superman and another Siegel creation to boot).  Superman should be a scientific genius as well for the same reasons (and maybe because of hereditity).

I prefer these stories, plain and simple --I also like to read some of them and laugh at the silliness of the physics (and I flunked physics) or the occasional plot gaffe.  At the same time I am often emotionally affected and entertained by these same aspects, especially when done well.

On the other hand, maybe I would enjoy a quality Superman, written and managed with Silver-Age care, who only had Golden Age powers.  Or some combination of the two.  Certainly there have been gaffes and continuity errors (ie, can Superman consistently beat up Luthor or Muhammed Ali under red sun conditions or not?), but no reason to scrap the whole concept.  As for the most super-feats (involving solar bodies, extra-dimensional or temporal travel, etc), they were probably over-used gimmicks but usually in the service of excellent or entertaining stories (I wouldn't erase those Legion stories for anything).

I realize that even fans of the more recent cartoon series are upset by the power levels of Superman.  It seems to me that the host of writers and producers of those shows are striving for some kind of balance that the comic book creators have largely abandoned.

Anyway, the solution for the sticklers seems obvious: bring back Earth-2 Superman.
 

[JulianPerez]

Whether from habit, nostalgia or wishful thinking, I think that the higher powered Superman (ie, pre-Crisis) is better.  Ridiculous niggling details, like the need for an air-supply in outer space --which says to me, "we don't know exactly how all his flying/vision powers work, but he must need oxygen!" --are aesthetically retarded and do a dishonour to the concept/character. This is a triumph of the fan/nerd over storytelling.

Yeah, did that bother anybody else? While I do agree with the belief that Superman can work at lower power levels, and overall the Superman: TAS people understood Superman well, when I saw Superman's Super-Spacesuit, I felt like shouting "bullsh..!" at the very top of my lungs.

This is a triumph of the fan over storytelling.

There is a difference between the mentality of a fan and the mentality of a professional writer. A fan would wonder if there is any ..... in the Phantom Zone and argue about this with his buddies over Mountain Dew. A professional would be expected to realize that such an unsavory detail would detract rather than add to the tone the Super-World creates and not touch upon it.

And while the best writers are ones that combine knowledge and respect for history with good old fashoined storytelling chops (namely, Steve Englehart and Kurt Busiek, arguably two of the five greatest comics writers ever), there are some writers that are consummate fans, yet do not have the ability to create interesting stories, characterize, or create imaginative concepts. An example of this is obviously Mark Gruenwald, who should have been a continuity cop instead of a writer (that said, I did appreciate his use in his CAPTAIN AMERICA run of N'Kantu the Living Mummy - you GO, Mark!) and ditto for the uninspired but detail-obssessed Roy Thomas, Mark Waid, and Paul Levitz.

Interesting how I can't think of a single writer who is a great storyteller, but is outright ignorant (or willfully in denial) of comics' history and shared universe. NOT ONE. Apparently, knowing and understanding what you're writing is a part of good writing (imagine that).

In the context of Superman's relation to other Earth heroes, it seems to me that aside from being the most "morally" powerful, he should also be the most physically powerful (vs various relative Johny-come-latelys as Green Lantern --I'll make an exception for the Spectre, in a sense the magical counterpart of Superman and another Siegel creation to boot).  Superman should be a scientific genius as well for the same reasons (and maybe because of hereditity).

Superman HAS to be Super-Smart, obviously.

As for Superman being the most moral - hey, those old Silver Age guys also had personalities centered on "protecting and serving," with strongly rooted ethos. Detractors of the Silver Age say that all of them had the exact same personality, but this is untrue; like King Arthur's Knights they shared a worldview.

[MatterEaterLad]

LOL, maybe that or let him evolve...but then the day of comics as I understand them are over IMO, I'm not super HAPPY about it, but, I kind of think they are...

The weird thing about watching S:TAS was not really knowing what Superman straining or grunting actually meant...could he have been killed, knocked out?  For how long?