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Author Topic: "High" Power Level vs. "Low" Power Level  (Read 51250 times)
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Captain Kal
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« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2005, 11:55:50 PM »

NotSuper, it's telling that The Science of Superman has been through two printings so far (hardcover and paperback) that a market exists for this kind of thing.  It's even more telling that, at least in my city, that the darn thing sold out so quickly after each printing.  It's impossible to find it in any bookstores in my city even soon after a publishing.  That tells us a lot of people out there are of like minds with NotSuper, RedSunofKrypton, and myself than are not. Smiley

As I said earlier, along the lines of what MatterEaterLad was saying, if it adds value to the stories, sure, go ahead, explore the whys and wherefores of the science or pseudoscience of Superman.  But if it fails or becomes far too introspective so it obstructs rather than moves the story along, then it's failed.  But like I said before, that applies to any fictional element if handled badly, so it's not a specific failing of the scientific approach.

Another example of how it was handled brilliantly was how Siegel had Superman move so fast that he could pass through a pane of glass without disturbing its molecular structure, which preceded Barry/Flash vibrating through walls.  In both cases, brilliant writing extrapolated from the known powers to seek out the implications of what they could also accomplish.  No need to invent a new power to seem like a deus ex machina when a logical way to accomplish the task can be used (with a tip of the hat here to JulianPerez's RPG thread speculations).

For a related example, some role-playing games get caught up in such an elaborate, overcomplicated set of rules that players often find themselves more rule-playing rather than role-playing.  The same thing applies to science and comics/S.F.
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Captain Kal

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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2005, 12:31:00 AM »

I think I'm in the middle, I do love the Science of Superman, even when I do think that it gets overwrought... Cool
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2005, 01:16:49 AM »

What I object to is when people try to apply real life science to Superman or use it to figure out what Superman should or should not be able to do. Our common knowledge of science today is a lot better than the science of the 50's and 60's. We now know that there is no difference between the light of a Red star and a Yellow one. We know that Human or even humanoid looking alien are next to impossible. Traveling faster than light can not be done. You wouldn't be able to move planets without killing everyone. The list goes on and on, I say that if we were to remove these things then Superman wouldn't be nearly as fun. The wacky and zany use of "science" is what made all those old Superman tales so much fun. Apply legit science to these stories and they all fall apart.

Every fantasy world has its own set of rules, once these rules are established, as long as the stories stick to them, people will play along.

So in the Superman fantasy world, he can fly, go faster than light, travel through time, red, yellow, and green suns are different, aliens can look like humans, etc.

I like these things, I wouldn't want to do away with them just because it doesn't fit actual logic and science. It's a comic book, anything can happen in a comic, that is the beauty of a comic, why ruin that?
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2005, 01:46:37 AM »

Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
As for the "science" of Superman and speculative fiction in general, it's helpful to have a firm sense of what the rules are and to solve problems within the context of said rules. Ideally, the rules should make for good and diverse kinds of story telling, especially for a world you're expecting the reader to live in for awhile. Even with comics that aren't really about speculative fiction, the humor is often against a backdrop of consistency and archetype.


You've essentially summarized my feelings on this particular issue here.

The important thing about science in science fiction - Superman and everywhere else - is not so much about being sticklers for plausible, real world physics, but consistency with well defined rules. One example I like to use of this is Star Trek's Transporter device, which is not possible at least by how we understand physics today; thanks to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, the very act of monitoring a particle (as would be required to to reassemble their atoms elsewhere) is not possible because the very act of observation shifts atoms' position. However, the Star Trek people are able to make us believe their teleporter works because it operates by rules they are consistent with and never violate: they cannot beam through forceshields, and as it is a drain on power, it can only be used at full energy, and so forth... Logically, there would be a backup in case such an all-important technology does not operate, so the Enterprise has shuttlecrafts - a credit to how well the writers of the show really thought all this through.

That said, this is no excuse for sloppy science. One writer of my acquaintance once called it the "Core of Mars is Made of Ice" slacking: in TOTAL RECALL, the fascinating premise of the movie, the idea that Mars might be made liveable by melting the poles, was totally sabotaged by an absurd declaration by Ahhh-nold: that the core of Mars is made of ice, which totally compromised any belief in the idea because it showed that the writer had really not done his homework.

Superman is a product of 1930s Futurism. I've argued on other occasions that Superman is by his nature a "period" character no matter what era his stories are set in. But more relevant to this discussion, I would say you can't remove Superman's science fiction angle.

One concern of mine is that a lot of writers have read nothing but comic books - not science texts, not science fiction, nothing, and so they have no experience in other things, which means they have nothing new to add. Look for instance, how well Kurt Busiek's knowledge of science fiction aided him in worldbuilding and grounding a society, as he did in his recent JLA arc, or how Alan Moore's knowledge of science introduced so many wonderful concepts in Supreme or Tom Strong.

Many people have told me the difference between Batman and Superman is that Superman's stories are light in tone, whereas Batman's are darker in tone. With respect to these fans, I don't agree with this. Batman was inspired by Zorro as well as the Shadow, and Bats does an awful lot of swashbuckling. Batman's world is more stylized than truly dark, with giant typewriters and zeppelins, and gangsters in fedoras and pinstripe zoot suits. Batman's stories are escapist, like Tarzan's or the Lone Ranger's, and so by their very nature, they cannot be truly nihilistic. They are action stories with the underworld background to give it "color." The "dead of night" aspect of Batman's character gives him color just like Green Lantern's space opera angle gives that hero color. But Batman is not a noir hero any more than Green Lantern is a space opera hero.

Batman's stories could stand to be lighter in tone (Len Wein's Bat stories for instance, were wonderful, and Steve Englehart himself was much more playful than scary) and at the same time, Superman could stand to be darker, too. I mean "darker" in the sense of introducing intriguing science fiction concepts instead of tarnishing Superman's innate, immutable incorruptibility. Superman is science fiction, and science fiction gave us 1984 as well as SKYLARK OF SPACE; science fiction has creepy and weird ideas in its escapist stories.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
For a related example, some role-playing games get caught up in such an elaborate, overcomplicated set of rules that players often find themselves more rule-playing rather than role-playing. The same thing applies to science and comics/S.F.


If a game is simple (like DC HEROES or PRINCE VALIANT), that's a strength. It should be noted that usually, "rules-light" games are based on a pair of simple ideas, and the games pass or fail depending on how well thought out these two or three ideas are. DC HEROES's comparison system and the concept of "APs" worked, whereas the White Wolf storyteller system failed, as its basic concept (the idea of dice pools) yielded wildly implausible and irregular results. On the other hand, there is something to be said for games with an extraordinary amount of detail. ROLEMASTER had a lot - a LOT - of rules, but it was consistent with all of them and they all fit together and balanced out. The trick is to make all the rules gel together instead of just tagging on new ones (which unfortunately, was what Palladium's approach was).
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2005, 02:07:12 AM »

Well...

The Spectre's origin is creepy and satisfying, its mystical and religious, science is out the window as with many of the time's contemporary heroes -- and I have little use for that, but I like the Spectre's origin...

I laugh at Johnny Thunder or the original Green Lantern's "Goitrude", and I needed no science...
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2005, 02:35:41 AM »

And why should Superman be the poster child for believable science fiction when he inhabited a universe where that wasn't so?
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Uncle Mxy
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« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2005, 03:12:40 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
On the other hand, there is something to be said for games with an extraordinary amount of detail. ROLEMASTER had a lot - a LOT - of rules, but it was consistent with all of them and they all fit together and balanced out. The trick is to make all the rules gel together instead of just tagging on new ones (which unfortunately, was what Palladium's approach was).

Speaking as someone whose name and work appears in an old Palladium book or two, one big problem was that the rules were extended to try and encompass different worlds than were initially envisioned.  Palladium's development is similar to how Superman's universe has evolved over the years - an ever-growing number of elements added to tell more types of stories, with the result being that things get unwieldy and clunky in spots.  Retconning an RPG is considerably harder than retconning a comic.  Smiley

Rolemaster (aka Chartmaster) had so many rules that, at the end of later supplements, there were _pages_ of rules checklists in small print so GMs could specify what rules were and weren't in force for the players (who I can only assumehad secret aspirations to become lawyers to put up with such rules complexities) to keep track of.  Imagine writers having to fill out hundred+ page checklists of just which Superman rules are/aren't in force, for every story arc.  Moohaha...
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NotSuper
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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2005, 03:36:21 AM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
NotSuper, it's telling that The Science of Superman has been through two printings so far (hardcover and paperback) that a market exists for this kind of thing.  It's even more telling that, at least in my city, that the darn thing sold out so quickly after each printing.  It's impossible to find it in any bookstores in my city even soon after a publishing.  That tells us a lot of people out there are of like minds with NotSuper, RedSunofKrypton, and myself than are not. Smiley

I haven't read the book myself yet, but it does seem like it'd be a fascinating read. Do you happen to know how much it costs and if it can be bought in a comic shop? Also, do you know how long the book is in terms of pages?

Anyway, there certainly is a market for sci-fi Superman stories. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to Morrison's All-Star Superman is because he describes it as both "big" and "science fiction." He's the kind of guy who knows what fans want: big, exciting stories that respect the intelligence of the reader. Heck, the first issue has Superman rescuing astronaunts from the sun! It doesn't really get any bigger than that.

As a reader, I like to learn about alien civilizations and futuristic worlds. With Superman stories you can read about places like that and more, with very few restictions. I guess that's one of the reasons I've always liked the character. But as much as his powers and feats entertain me, I also like reading about exactly how he got his powers and how they work. A good writer can explain these things in such a way that it makes you appreciate a good story even more. The people who shaped Superman's mythos understood this and always tried to offer up explanations for Superman's powers, even though they could've just ignored things like that. Not all of these explanations made sense (though some did), there was still an effort by them to explain things.

As for RPGs, I prefer ones with relatively simple but consistent rules which place a great emphasis on actually playing your character.
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