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Author Topic: Saddest Superman  (Read 33755 times)
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TELLE
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« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2005, 12:23:12 AM »

Reich was not exactly dredged up from nowhere --he still has a following in sex therapy and among people interested in fringe science, etc.

As well, his book The Mass Psychology of Facsism still holds up.  Reich was an early left-wing critic of the Nazis who fled Germany only to be eventually imprisoned in the U.S. for his beliefs and psuedo-scientific claims.  His books were banned and burned by the U.S. government.  He died in prison.
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Maximara
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« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2005, 01:33:23 PM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
It must be noted that Crisis isn't to blame for the LSH continuity mess.  It all traces back to Unca Johnny Byrne getting rid of Superboy -- and by extension, Supergirl too --without thinking through the consequences to the vastly popular Legion book.[/img]


Actully it was not Bryne's fault but rather DC's for not having a really plan (despite coming out with a History of the DC universe right after Crisis) of what the post-Crisis DCU would be like.

For example in Time Masters it is states that a method of time travel will work only twice for a certain person which ingored the fact that Barry Allen and foes like Abrakadabra and Professor Zoom has all used the same method of time travel dozens of times each. Furthermore Byrne likely thought the LSH riters would use the out they gave themselves in LSH #18 (Dec 1985) but instead the LSH writers just went along as if Crisis never happened.

Then DC had Legends which had Cosmic Boy land in the 20th century and find out that not only there wasn't a Superbody but every major thing the LSH kne about the 20th century as wrong. He talks about how the people adored their heroes and finds the anti-hero protests going on, he then talks about the safe use of nuclear power and finds out about Three Mile island, and finally when he talks about the safe space program he finds out about the Challenger disaster. If this was not bad enough you have the fact scientists of the LSH's time had used Time Bubbles to verify these events. Cosmic Boy gets home and we go into Legion of Superheroes #37 which introduces the Pocket Universe.

Byrne picks up Levitz's idea in Superman #8 and adds a throw away line
about how 'this' Superman met the Superboy of Earth Prime (pg 10 panel 1). Unfortunitly Bryne kept with the Post Crisis idea of all close parallel universes being wiped out and had the Pocket Universe an artifically created alternate timeline but Levitz had the Pocket Universe a reality the Time Trapper somehow saved from Crisis which given the events In Crisis #11-#12 made no sense what-so-ever.

Things go from bad to worse as the LSH writers continue on their merry way. Instead of using the Pocket Universe to fix all the continuty glitches the LSH writerd have Superboy sacrifice himself eliminating the possiblity to deal with the Sensor Girl/Supergirl plot thread which they promply drop. Of course this still left Mon-El whose existance now made no sense. So after a jump of five years the LSH writhers retcon Superboy's history to where he was a member only a short time further messing up what little continuity they had.

Then some writer got the bright idea of Mon-El finallly realizing that he should not exist and going after the Time Trapper. How he knew the Trapper was alive after the Infinate Man suppossedly destroyed the guy in LSH vol 3 #50 was not really explained. He KOes the Trapper and for some reason this destroys ALL the Trapper had done and history goes into lala land for one issue until Glorith uses a life sacrifice to make one and only one action of the Trapper happen  the switch of Phase and the Durlan who was to become R. J. Brande which ignored the fact that that Durlan was Chameleon Boy's father and yet Chameleon Boy exists in this alternate history. Then there is the little issue of the Pocket Universe which required a Time Trapper whihc somebody remember a little later on and had Glorith  absorb the guy becoming the new Time Trapper. Unfortunilty by that time Mon-El had been replaced by Valor who now instead of Superboy inspired the legion. Then somebody had Glorith accidently kill Valor screwing up LSH history yet again.

So LSH vol 4 #53 comes out and has the original Time Trapper take out Glorith thanks to the mess she made of history. Of course by that time LSH history made about as much sense as Hawkman's. THen came End of an Era which addressed even pre-Crisis continuty snafus. For example one picture on pg 11 in Legionnaires #17 deals with Adventure Comics #267 (Doc 1959) where Saturn Girl shoots lightning bolts from her eyes.  Another Pre-Crisis contiuity glitch from this time was Action Comics #287 where the LSH exist in the 21st rather than 30th century. FInallyt eh LSH rebooted and everybody stopped getting headaches.
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Captain Kal
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« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2005, 02:42:37 PM »

Yikes!  Thanks for that disturbingly thorough recap of the Post Crisis continuity mess.  Not all of what you said above relates directly to the LSH but it's nice to have it all in one great post. Cheesy

I still say the Legion's specific continuity problems stemmed from Byrne's MOS reboot, having done away with Superboy and Supergirl.  His silly Pocketverse had so many holes in it -- such as Mon-El as you pointed out! -- and it was exacerbated by Byrne's farewell Matrix Supergirl storyline (which I listed earlier on the worst Superman stories thread).

With that convoluted mess, IMHO, DC had no option but to reboot the LSH to retcon the Byrne-mess above as if it never happened.  The Pocketverse was completely unworkable given the compound mess Unca Johnny left behind there.

Unfortunately, the writers have gone reboot happy with the Legion since that first precedent so they just hit the reset button whenever it's absolutely convenient for them.  DC Editorial has done nothing to rein this in, so you're right about no real plan being in place.
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dto
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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2005, 04:44:03 PM »

Maximara, this brings up a probelm I always had with Superman #8.

I don't mind Superman still recalling Superboy-Prime in Superman #8 (though whether this has since been erased by residual Crisis ripples or Zero Hour is anyone's guess now), but HOW could Superman know that Prime "disappeared into Limbo"?  At the time, Superman was still unconscious and there were no surviving witnesses when Alexander Luthor opened his portal to the "Paradise Dimension"!  

Darkseid and guests were watching the final battle, but he dismissed the heroes before Kal-L, Lois, Prime and Alex left the scene, and it's possible that Darkseid also missed seeing their departure.   And even if Darkseid did observe this, how would Superman know as early as Issue #8?
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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2005, 10:18:22 PM »

Quote from: "TELLE"
As well, his book The Mass Psychology of Facsism still holds up.  Reich was an early left-wing critic of the Nazis who fled Germany only to be eventually imprisoned in the U.S. for his beliefs and psuedo-scientific claims.  His books were banned and burned by the U.S. government.  He died in prison.


Wilhelm Reich was placed in prison (for two years) for contempt of court when the FDA, realizing his shiny objects with flashy buttons had no effect on anything, got an injunction to prevent it from being sold as a legitimate medical procedure.

One might assume that my unbelieveably sarcastic post above might lead others to think that I have nothing but contempt for "Wet Willy" Reich. This could not be further from the truth. Whatever else one might say Reich, he was not a cynical opportunist tricking gullible old people into buying snake oil. He was a true believer, through and through; why else would he go back to selling his hocus cures when the U.S. of A itself said to stop? That requires guts I wish I had, as does his book, MASS PSYCHOLOGY OF FASCISM, published, I might add, in Austria in 1933! Wow. I'm not saying that Reich wasn't great or heroic or a true believer. I am saying, though, that he was several noodles short of a shnitzel.

I just realized something incredibly sad. All of the members of the League of Infinity are individuals whose lives end early and incredibly tragically. Perhaps Alan Moore was attempting to make a point about the League's callousness (demonstrated most ruthlessly with their decision to murder their comrade, Wild Bill Hickok): that is, allowing these youths to adventure with them, all the while knowing their eventual grisly fate. Moore made this same point with the model the League was based on, the actual Legion, in "Whatever Happened?" Superman curses them for their callowness in befriending him all the while knowing all along the day he was going to die and keeping this from him.

Wild Bill, obviously was shot in the back and killed in his hometown.

Mata Hari was executed for espionage in World War I.

Wilhelm Reich died of heart failure in prison.

Siegfried is murdered by his own brother, Guttorm, in bed, and his wife Brunhilda kills his son.

Achilles was killed by an arrow through his one weak spot.

I have no idea if Witch Wench is based on a real person, but it's seriously not hard to imagine a broomstick-riding witch meeting a bad end in 16th-17th Century Europe.

This gives a rather ominous note to the Supreme series, implying that it will not have a happy ending.
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Maximara
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« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2005, 03:33:18 AM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
I still say the Legion's specific continuity problems stemmed from Byrne's MOS reboot, having done away with Superboy and Supergirl.


No because the Legion writer had a perfect out wit  LSH vol 3 #18 and they did not use it - ever.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
his silly Pocketverse had so many holes in it -- such as Mon-El as you pointed out! -- and it was exacerbated by Byrne's farewell Matrix Supergirl storyline (which I listed earlier on the worst Superman stories thread).


Why does everybody say that Byrne invented this thing when in fact it appeared in LSH  Vol 3 #37 thanks to Paul Levitz first? Byrne did not create the Pocket Unvierse rather Levitz was the clown the inflicteted this bonehead kludge on us.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
With that convoluted mess, IMHO, DC had no option but to reboot the LSH to retcon the Byrne-mess above as if it never happened.  The Pocketverse was completely unworkable given the compound mess Unca Johnny left behind there.


I think Byrne was pissed off at Levitz and desided to destroy Levitz's little abomination once and for all.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Unfortunately, the writers have gone reboot happy with the Legion since that first precedent so they just hit the reset button whenever it's absolutely convenient for them.  DC Editorial has done nothing to rein this in, so you're right about no real plan being in place.


Hypertime has become what we all fear it would be - the great cop out against anything even remotely resembling continuity.
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Maximara
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« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2005, 01:27:18 PM »

Quote from: "dto"
Maximara, this brings up a probelm I always had with Superman #8.

I don't mind Superman still recalling Superboy-Prime in Superman #8 (though whether this has since been erased by residual Crisis ripples or Zero Hour is anyone's guess now), but HOW could Superman know that Prime "disappeared into Limbo"?  At the time, Superman was still unconscious and there were no surviving witnesses when Alexander Luthor opened his portal to the "Paradise Dimension"!  

Darkseid and guests were watching the final battle, but he dismissed the heroes before Kal-L, Lois, Prime and Alex left the scene, and it's possible that Darkseid also missed seeing their departure.   And even if Darkseid did observe this, how would Superman know as early as Issue #8?


I have always gone with the idea Superman was thinking figuratively. Crisis was kind of a mess post-Crisis because how it went down in the Post-Crisis DCU was never really fleshed out. Also the rules of the new DCU were never agreed on so for example you had LSH saying one thing about time travel, Flash said soming else and Time Masters contridicting everything both LSH and Flash had said on the issue up to that point. Byrne was not the cause but rather a symtom of the fact that DC had little if any real plan on how to continue after Crisis.


COncepts like Time Travel
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Captain Kal
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« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2005, 09:58:54 PM »

With all due respect, Maximara, Byrne and Levitz co-created the Pocket Universe.  While it appeared in the LSH book immediately before Byrne's Superman #8, it was a coordinated effort between the two books that both writers worked together on to establish a patch.  They failed.  That failure figures largely in how the Pocketverse couldn't handle the likes of Mon-El, Supergirl, or the classic LSH stories involving time travel, or the Computo storyline which linked back to Superman's/Batman's time and that continuity.  Both books came out in Aug. 1987.

Byrne gets most of the blame since most of the Pocketverse was mentioned in his set of books for that storyline.

Byrne gets extra blame for further screwing up Pocketverse continuity with his lame Supergirl storyline and his blasphemous 'forcing' Superman to kill.  He even has Superman think he's now tarnished -- which is a really nice farewell panel for Byrne.  Not.
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Captain Kal

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