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Author Topic: Your Superman Dream-Team?  (Read 19556 times)
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2005, 02:25:46 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"


Why Neal, though? I know he did JIMMY OLSEN covers, but he's more a Batman kind of artist, isn't he?


Well he did more than just a few Jimmy Olsen covers, LOL.

Neal Adams super massive ego might be too hard to deal with, but he is friendly with Maggin, so I would team both of them together.

Neal's Superman Check List from his site:

ACTION COMICS (DC)
Cover only - #356, 358, 359, 361,362, 363(Layout by Carmine Infantino), 364, 366(Layout by Carmine Infantino), 367(Layout by Carmine Infantino), 370(Layout and half pencils by Carmine Infantino), 371(inks over Swan), 372, 373(inks over Swan), 374, 377(inks over Swan) , 378(inks over Swan), 379(Layout by Carmine Infantino), 398(Layout by Carmine Infantino), 399, 400, 402, 404(Inked by Giordano), 405(Inked by Giordano), 419(Inked by Murphy Anderson), 466, 468, 473, 485
#425 (July 1973) "The Short Walk To Disaster Contract" (6 pages) Written by
Len Wein, Adams pencils, Giordano inks the Human Target (1973)

ADVENTURE COMICS (DC)
Covers only - 365-369, 371-373, 375, 376(inks over Swan), 377, 378, 379, 381(inks over Swan), 382(inks over Swan), 383(inks over Swan)

ALL NEW COLLECTORS EDITION (DC)
#C-56 (1978) (72 pages) "Superman VS. Muhammad Ali" Script based on an
original story by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams, adapted and penciled by Neal Adams, inked by Terry Austin and Dick Giordano

AMAZING WORLD OF DC (DC)
#8 (September 1975) Carmine Infantino sketch
Special (February 1976) (5 pages) Never before published Superman story.
Written by Len Wein, Adams pencils (no inks)

JIMMY OLSEN (DC)
Covers only - #109(Infantino Layout), 110(Swan Pencil), 111, 112, 115, 117(Swan Pencil), 118(Infantino layout), 120(Infantino layout), 121(Swan Pencil), 122(Swan Pencil), 132, 134, 135, 136, 147,148
Covers only (inks over Jack Kirby) - 137,138,141-144

JUSTICE LEAGUE (DC)
Covers only - #63(NOT ADAMS. Art by Mike Sekosky), #66(Infantino layout), 67, 70(Infantino layout), 74, 79, 81, 82, 86-89, 91, 92(Infantino layout), 95(partly penciled by Swan), 96, 97, 98, 138, 139
#94 Cover and (November 1971) "Where Strikes Demonfang?" Written by Mike Friedrich, Adams pencils pages 1, 5, 20 and 22

 LIMITED COLLECTORS EDITION (DC)
Covers only - C-39, C-46
#C-23 Reprint of House of Mystery #179 "Widow's Walk" (10 pages) and #186
"Nightmare" (12 pages)
#C-25 "Batman" Reprint of Detective #404 "Ghost Of The Killer Skies" (15
pages) Joker, Enemy Ace
#C-31 "Superman Park" (2 pages)
#C-38 "Superman" Reprint of Superman #254 "The Baby Who Walked Through
Walls" (7 pages)
#C-39 (October-November 1975) "Secret Origins Super-Villains" Reprint of
Superman #249 "The Origin of Terra-Man" (7 pages) Dick Dillin pencils, Adams
inks
#C-43 (February-March 1976) "Christmas with the Super-Heroes" Reprint of
Batman #219 "The Silent Night of the Batman (8 pages)
#C-48 (October-November 1976) Superman VS Flash, (6 pages) Plans for
Superman's Fortress of Solitude
#C-51 (August 1984) Treasury size Reprint of Batman #232 and 237
#C-52 "Best of DC" Reprint
#C-59 "Batman's Strangest Cases) Reprint

LOIS LANE (DC)
Covers only - #79, 80(Penciled by Swan), 81, 82, 83, 94, 95, 96, 87, 88, 89(Infantino layout), 90(Infantino layout), 91, 92(Penciled by Swan), 93(Penciled by Swan), 94(Penciled by Swan), 95(Penciled by Swan)

SECRET ORIGINS OF THE SUPER DC SUPER HEROES
Cover only - 1976

SUPERBOY (DC)
Covers only - #143,145-153,155,157-161,163,164,166-168,172,173,175,176,178

SUPERMAN (DC)
Covers only - #204, 205, 206, 207(Penciled by Kurt Swan), 208, 210,213(Penciled by Infantino), 214, 215, 218(Penciled by Swan), 219(Penciled by Swan), 231, 233,234, 235(Layout by Infantino), 236, 237, 240(Layout by Infantino), 241, 242, 243, 250(Loose Layout by Infantino),251(Layout by Infantino), 252, 263(Inked by Murry Anderson), 307, 308, 313(Huh?), 314(Penciled by Kurt Swan), 317
#249 (March 1972) Cover and "The Origin Of Terra-Man" (7 pages) Written by
Cary Bates, Dick Dillon pencils, Adams inks
#254 (July 1972) Cover and "The Baby Who Walked Through Walls" (7 pages)
Written by Len Wein, pencils and inks by Adams
#257 (October 1972) "The Greatest Green Lantern Of All" (8 pages) Story idea
by Adams but his plot was not used (no Adams art)

SUPERMAN FAMILY (DC)
Covers only - #182-185
#171 (June-July 1975) Reprint of World's Finest #176

SUPERMAN FROM THE 30'S TO THE 70'S (CROWN and BONANZA BOOKS)
(1971) Reprint of many Neal Adams Superman covers in the gallery

SUPERMAN FROM THE 30'S TO THE 80'S (CROWN BOOKS)
(1983) Reprint of many Neal Adams Superman covers in the gallery

SUPERMAN GALLERY
#1 Adams pinup
 
SUPERMAN VS THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN
(1976) Adams redrew some shots of Superman over Ross Andru

SUPER-TEAM FAMILY (DC)
#1 (October-November 1975) Reprint of World's Finest #175
#2 (February-March 1976) Reprint of Brave and the Bold cover of #79 and
story from World's Finest 176

 WORLDS FINEST (DC)
Covers only - #174, 178-180, 182(Penciled by Kurt Swan), 183(Layout by Carmine Infantino), 185, 186(Layout by Infantino), 199, 200, 201(Layout by Infantino), 202, 203, 204(Giordano Inks), 205, 208, 209(Giordano Inks), 210(Giordano Inks), 211, 244-246, 258,
#175 (May 1968) Cover and "The Superman-Batman Revenge Squad" (17 pages +
cover) Penciled by Adams, inks by Giordano
#176 (June 1968) Cover and "The Superman-Batman Split" (18 pages + cover)
Penciled by Adams, inks by Giordano
#223 Reprint of Strange Adventures #206
#226 (November-December 1974) Reprint of Strange Adventures #207
#230 (June 1975) Reprint of Challengers of the Unknown #74
#302 (April 1984) Reprint of World's Finest 176
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2005, 02:27:25 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
...least the way people were about Busiek's JLA recently.

Perhaps at the beginning, but I haven't heard many positive comments on the various comic boards about the way the story progressed. Granted, there were behind the scenes circumstances which we don't need to go into here, but there seems to be a very negative sentiment toward the arc--it isn't like Busiek isn't popular on the Internet either. People really do like the guy.

I didn't have any problem with the run myself.
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2005, 02:28:15 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
This is going to sound like such a really morbid question, but...is Cary Bates still alive?

Last I heard (a couple of years ago) Cary Bates was indeed alive and well, but was busy being a recluse in the desert somewhere and not returning any of his phone calls.  I think maybe he was sick of it all and wanted nothing to do with comics or with fans or hollywood or something like that.

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Quote from: "SuperMonkey"
Neal Adams

I dunno - that would mean one more thing on Neal's checklist before he has to do the sequel to BUCKY O'HARE AND THE TOAD WARS.

I'm still waiting for the next issue of Ms. Mystic.

Anyone who has browsed this site at all knows my first choice of writer:  Elliot S! Maggin.  But I think getting him on a regular monthly schedule could be tricky.  Perhaps making him Superman Editor (as he wanted to be) would be a better move.

Then you can have your other first choice of writer - say, Kurt Busiek or Mark Waid or Grant Morrison or someboy.  Maybe have those three handle the three titles?  Could be a good team, especially under Maggin.

Edit: also suggest Mark Millar for writing duties.

I don't really have a strong feeling about the artist - to me, the story is much more important.

S!
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2005, 02:31:39 AM »

Quote from: "Great Rao"

Anyone who has browsed this site at all knows my first choice of writer:  Elliot S! Maggin.  But I think getting him on a regular monthly schedule could be tricky.  Perhaps making him Superman Editor (as he wanted to be) would be a better move.

I think Maggin would make a great editor. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening. Plus, even if he did get the job there are a lot of mindless fanboys who might treat him badly. I wouldn't want to wish that on him.
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2005, 02:46:14 AM »

Maggin would be a fine editor in my mind, he has a sense of the mythos...but I often find his stories one notch over what I want in a comic book....sorry all, that's just me...
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2005, 03:11:57 AM »

Quote from: "Great Rao"
Last I heard (a couple of years ago) Cary Bates was indeed alive and well, but was busy being a recluse in the desert somewhere and not returning any of his phone calls.  I think maybe he was sick of it all and wanted nothing to do with comics or with fans or hollywood or something like that.

He's doing cartoons:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0383718/

Quote
Then you can have your other first choice of writer - say, Kurt Busiek or Mark Waid or Grant Morrison or someboy.  Maybe have those three handle the three titles?  Could be a good team, especially under Maggin.

I'd love to make the titles more distinctive from each other thematically (as opposed to artist/writer) before going beyond one title.  It'd go like this:

- Superman:  Just a place to tell good stories without any particular bias (other than not to overdo it on themes covered by the other two).  This would be the book most connected to DC as a whole -- crossover-bait.

- Action Comics:  Space stories...  Superman in exotic worlds, doing grand stuff, with less focus on his earthbound supporting cast (no Lois angst every few pages!).  Focus on the Super.  

- The Adventures of Superman (renamed to something else):  Heavy on the supporting cast, focus on SuperMAN, who may not even be the primary character in a story if someone wants to tell a good Jimmy story.

Quote
I don't really have a strong feeling about the artist - to me, the story is much more important.

Art that distracts from the story doesn't work for me.
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2005, 04:58:20 AM »

Wow, Supermonkey, I humbly stand corrected. That's one huge list.

Quote from: "Great Rao"
Anyone who has browsed this site at all knows my first choice of writer: Elliot S! Maggin. But I think getting him on a regular monthly schedule could be tricky. Perhaps making him Superman Editor (as he wanted to be) would be a better move.


Hear hear! Maggin has weaknesses, but knowing who Superman is, is definitely not one of them. Just imagine him as an editor with yea or nay powers over stories - Elliot, who more than anybody else understands what Superman is fundamentally about, would nix stories that are harmful, or clueless, or rewrite them so that they are in line with how Superman works. He could be the anti-Carlin: a dedicated professional that understands the character, who maintains a high story quality by ensuring destructive or conceptually flawed tales detrimental to Superman's greatness don't get past him.

I cannot think of a better choice for Superman editor.

Quote from: "Great Rao"
I don't really have a strong feeling about the artist - to me, the story is much more important.


This is totally true. Not to denigrate the contributions that artists make, but writers make or break the story. Englehart's INCREDIBLE HULK is remembered for his stories, not Herb Trimpe's clumsy pen; Gaiman's SANDMAN is remembered for his writing, not the smudgy guy that did the art. At the same time, writers bear responsibility for lousy stories more severely than artists do.

That said, some artists are better than others, which is why the question is asked.

Quote from: "NotSuper"
Perhaps at the beginning, but I haven't heard many positive comments on the various comic boards about the way the story progressed. Granted, there were behind the scenes circumstances which we don't need to go into here, but there seems to be a very negative sentiment toward the arc--it isn't like Busiek isn't popular on the Internet either. People really do like the guy.

I didn't have any problem with the run myself.


I have noticed this, and I'm absolutely appalled. Here we have, in eight issues, arguably one of the greatest JLA stories ever written - and easily the greatest one of the Modern Era, and fans throw it aside when they aren't actively denigrating it.

Fanboys do not deserve Kurt Busiek writing JLA.

I have nothing against Grant Morrison (who is average instead of bad) but Busiek in eight issues totally outdid Grant's JLA in every single way: characterization (you can FEEL the heat of Ultraman's rage when he shatters the pearls Owlman gives Superwoman, and the Flash's antsiness compared to the Manhunter's placidity), worldbuilding (if you were to make a list of the things that we know about the Antimatter Universe Earth from Busiek's FIRST TWO ISSUES ALONE, and compare it to what we know from Morrison's Antimatter Earth story, the list would be easily longer on the side of Busiek), and in sense of history: we have classic characters like Red Tornado and Elongated Man (characters Morrison NEVER USED AT ALL), the appearance of the Construct, and even the Englehart-era JLA Sattelite every other writer's forgotten about makes a cameo, which Morrison only had appear just to blow it up. Busiek USED the DC Universe; they fight in San Fransisco, they meet the Titans and while the Power Company doesn't appear, there is an explanation why. Batman's pragmatism in Kurt's story made him a clever planner instead of an antisocial weasel whose characterization is being insensitive to those around him. Most importantly of all, Busiek was able to create a sense of fear with his JLA story, a sense of desperation that cast victory into doubt, something Morrison never was able to do; it's unsurprising when he created a law in his Key story that the JLA was always assured of victory; it sure did feel that way under him, didn't it?

But the fact that fans would prefer MORRISON - who, if he lived during the actual Silver Age would be considered DC's answer to Gerry Conway (at least until the actual Gerry Conway showed up at DC). Granted, Morrison was the first to use an all-star roster for the JLA in some time, but this is no particular distinction, because that's the single most obvious roster to have. In fact, Keith Giffen wanted to use an all-star JLA as far back as 1987, but because of political reasons (too elaborate to go into here) he was denied it. There's nothing special about Morrison's approach, nor anything special of his ideas or plot. And for his grotesque mischaracterization of Batman as a misanthropic loner whose mystique totally overshadows the other characters in ways detrimental to them, and Plastic Man as the "comic relief" (joining the tradition of Jar-Jar Binks, Scrappy-Doo, Alpha 5, and Snarf from the Thundercats as being the so-called "Comic Relief" that is in reality, the obnoxious character we hate more than anyone else) I cannot easily forgive him.
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2005, 01:28:20 PM »

Picking a writer is the hard part.  There are so few I enjoy.

Artists are another matter.  I'll take:

- Steve Rude
- Mike Allred
- Darwyn Cooke

Much as I love Neal Adam's old work on Superman (plug: see my tribute at http://nightwing.supermanfan.net/artists/sm-nealadams.htm) I have to say he's lost it.  Nowadays he insists on drawing Supes with curly, almost brillo-like hair, and his work in general has a sketchier, rouger look than I care for (he apparently inks with a sharpie).  Plus, one of the requirements for any "dream book" would have to be on-schedule, monthly publication, so that lets Neal out for sure!

Cary Bates is still alive but done with comics.  He works in TV.  He's actually probably a lot younger than you think, having started in comics as a kid (not much older than Shooter was, I think).

All said, my real dream team is only going to be printing books up at Pearly Gates Publishing these days...Ed Hamilton, Curt Swan and George Klein.
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