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Author Topic: "The Origin of Superboy-Prime!"  (Read 6261 times)
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Paul Sanders
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2003, 12:35:08 AM »

Well, I think that  like all (good) stories, they are the wish of the writer.

And that writer, way back when, wanted to write about a Superboy from "Our  Earth".  Now, we just don't read certain parts of a good novel, simply because of the subject matter. At least, not hte first time through.

Likewise, the writer wrote the story as part of a greater story, and we don't just rip out the first part of "War and Peace", never touching upon the novel's overall story...

Some of the best Superman, or comic stories in general, deal with a less than "nice" subject matter.  I mean, "Must there Be A Superman" dealt with natural disaster, and by extension, DEATH!

Elliot S! Maggin put part of himself into that story, and I think we owe to him, not only as self-appointed "fans" but also as human beings, to respect that creation by showing it in its entirety, without alteration.

Now, I think the references to Supergirl and the Crisis can lead to a new page dealing with the Crisis, and what we lost then. If you want, I'll whip up a  rough draft.  Its an excellent way for us to show that, even in the tragedy of a multi-versal slaughter, Superman still retained his righteousness.

Thanks for putting it up anyway, and I agree, the SuperMenace story works well, already being referenced here: http://superman.nu/a/trip.php

Paul Sanders
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2003, 06:52:13 PM »

Quote from: "Paul Sanders"
Well, I think that  like all (good) stories, they are the wish of the writer.

I'm not sure that everything in this story was the wish of the writer.  The Superboy-Prime part probably was, but I doubt that Elliot S! Maggin wanted to write stories about the end of the universe and the death of the characters that he loved and wanted to continue writing about.

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And that writer, way back when, wanted to write about a Superboy from "Our  Earth".

Which is what Part One is about, and it functions pretty well as a stand alone story about Superboy-Prime's origin.

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Now, we just don't read certain parts of a good novel, simply because of the subject matter. At least, not the first time through.

Likewise, the writer wrote the story as part of a greater story, and we don't just rip out the first part of "War and Peace", never touching upon the novel's overall story...

The problem here is that we don't actually know the "greater story."

I don't think that your comparison is fair.  A more accurate one might be if Leo Tolstoy were a quarter or a third into writing War and Peace when his editor walked in and said to him, "Sorry, Leo, baby.  We're pulling the plug on this one.  Gonna destroy the universe.  Kill everyone.  You can write a couple more pages if you like, but that's it.  No more."  He might write 2 or 3 more pages, but they would not be the intended conclusion to his novel.

So reading those last few Maggin stories isn't reading "the novel's overall story," but instead can only give a few small hints of what that overall story might have been had he been allowed to continue.  They're more about the sadness, anger, and frustration felt at what's going on:  Everyone dying; The universe being erased;  All the creators being fired.  Important stuff, yes, but certainly not what Maggin's vision was.
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Paul Sanders
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2003, 08:49:01 PM »

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I'm not sure that everything in this story was the wish of the writer. The Superboy-Prime part probably was, but I doubt that Elliot S! Maggin wanted to write stories about the end of the universe and the death of the characters that he loved and wanted to continue writing about.


Therein lies the problem. We can't start second-guessing what Elliot S! Maggin wanted with the story. We can't. We're not him. Unless we ask him, and get a direct quote, we got nothing.

So, its not our place to disect the story, removing certain parts of it.  We half to respect the whole story, and not just what we like or don't like.  I mean, we don't judge half a novel, likewise, not half a movie. We read the whole thing. No person reads half a comic book, they read it all.  And if you do judge it before reading it all, they are, honestly, neophytes.

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And that writer, way back when, wanted to write about a Superboy from "Our Earth".
 

Which is what Part One is about, and it functions pretty well as a stand alone story about Superboy-Prime's origin.


Yes, but it isn't ALL THE STORY. We didn't see Superboy's reaction to Superman, didn't see how he reacted to discovering his Kryptonian heirtage, and all the rest.

I WANT to read the whole story. And that's what the writer intended. Unless he specifically said "Don't read past this point, it doesn't count", then "Part one" is part of an overarcing story.  Its the beginning.  And the middle and the end of a story is just as important.

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The problem here is that we don't actually know the "greater story."


Yes I do. I looked it up, and apparently Superboy meets Superman, and they fight off an alien invasion.  We know that this part was meant to supplement a greater story, DC Comics Presents #87 "The Year of the Comet".

The references to Crisis are just that, references. You can ignore them and still enjoy the story. If you can't, then I suggest you learn how to discern. Its a valuable tool.

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I don't think that your comparison is fair. A more accurate one might be if Leo Tolstoy were a quarter or a third into writing War and Peace when his editor walked in and said to him, "Sorry, Leo, baby. We're pulling the plug on this one. Gonna destroy the universe. Kill everyone. You can write a couple more pages if you like, but that's it. No more." He might write 2 or 3 more pages, but they would not be the intended conclusion to his novel.


No, I think you're just being plain silly.

Your misguided beliefs to the contrary, there was no set "story" that took place.  All of these old issues didn't interconnect as they do today. Instead, its just a single issue. And y'know what? No one died in that issue, I think.  And Maggin didn't destroy any worlds. So please, hold back your hatred.

Earth-1 was a combination of hundreds of creators and thousands of comics. It wasn't one creator, and I think you need to realize it.

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So reading those last few Maggin stories isn't reading "the novel's overall story," but instead can only give a few small hints of what that overall story might have been had he been allowed to continue.


They're is no proof that Maggin wanted this beyond a one-shot story.  And again, you're supposedly mind-reading.  Realize that, there IS no "overall story" There was a story, in a single issue of DC comics Presents. THAT is my point.  We aren't reading the rest of that single issue. That's the whole point of the book reference.

The Pre-Crisis universe wasn't Maggin's personal story. If it was, I could see your point. But it isn't, face facts.

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 They're more about the anger and frustration felt at what's going on: Everyone dying; The universe being erased; All the creators being fired. Important stuff, yes, but certainly not what Maggin's vision was.


Am I getting through? Is this thing on?

Maggin did not create the pre-crisis universe. Jerry Siegal and Joe Shuster did.  He didn't create the Multiverse. Gardner Fox Did.  He didn't even create Earth-prime!

Maggin had no "vision". He had stories, and it was someone else's sandbox. The sandbox got cleaned, and his stories got invalidated. Crap happens.

I love the Silver Age. But it wasn't all bad what happened in Crisis. Alot of good happened.

Paul Sanders
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2003, 10:10:07 PM »

Quote from: "Paul Sanders"

Therein lies the problem. We can't start second-guessing what Elliot S! Maggin wanted with the story. We can't. We're not him. Unless we ask him, and get a direct quote, we got nothing.

So, its not our place to disect the story, removing certain parts of it.  We half to respect the whole story, and not just what we like or don't like.  I mean, we don't judge half a novel, likewise, not half a movie. We read the whole thing. No person reads half a comic book, they read it all.  And if you do judge it before reading it all, they are, honestly, neophytes.

I think that part of the confusion here is that you are talking about DCCP #87 as a stand-alone issue, while I'm talking about the collection of all Maggin Superman stories.  And yes, they do constitute a vision.  Taken as a whole, they have reoccurring characters (Kristin Wells, Towbee, etc), reoccurring themes, grand destinies, etc.  Yes, Maggin started out in someone else's sandbox, but he also ended up creating his own Maggin-verse.  Or perhaps expanding the sandbox.
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I WANT to read the whole story. And that's what the writer intended. Unless he specifically said "Don't read past this point, it doesn't count", then "Part one" is part of an overarcing story.  Its the beginning.  And the middle and the end of a story is just as important.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  Maggin has stated that all of his Superman stories constitute a single oeuvre.  He has also stated that he wanted to continue on with Superman (preferably as editor), but  the reboot prevented it.  So, we never got the chance to see his entire concept.  I'm not trying to guess what he's thinking, I'm basing my point on things he has said.

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I don't think that your comparison is fair. A more accurate one might be if Leo Tolstoy were a quarter or a third into writing War and Peace when his editor walked in and said to him, "Sorry, Leo, baby. We're pulling the plug on this one. Gonna destroy the universe. Kill everyone. You can write a couple more pages if you like, but that's it. No more." He might write 2 or 3 more pages, but they would not be the intended conclusion to his novel.


No, I think you're just being plain silly.

I think you need to read more Maggin stories Cool

Quote

Your misguided beliefs to the contrary, there was no set "story" that took place.  All of these old issues didn't interconnect as they do today. Instead, its just a single issue. And y'know what? No one died in that issue, I think.  And Maggin didn't destroy any worlds. So please, hold back your hatred.

:?: No offense, but I really don't know what you're talking about.  What hatred are you referring to?  I never said that anyone died, nor that any worlds were destroyed.  And I think that many of the stories do interconnect.

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The Pre-Crisis universe wasn't Maggin's personal story. If it was, I could see your point. But it isn't, face facts.

I apologize if I wasn't clear.  Again, I wasn't talking about the Pre-Crisis universe, I was talking about the overall arc in all of Maggin's Superman stories.

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Maggin had no "vision"

"My vision of life has changed since I was twenty.  As I worked with Superman, my concept of him got closer and closer, I think, to the Siegel and Shuster vision. If anything, I think of Superman more as an American icon and less as an action hero now.  But what really has changed is my vision of what constitutes an American icon.  Itís all right, in my perception, to be a patriot.  It wasnít always.  People with whom I disagreed had somehow usurped the concept of patriotism and even ruined it for awhile for my own personal purposes. Superman personifies the kind of call to patriotic and humanitarian values that candidates for public office try to awaken in their public in the course of a political campaign.  Heís a kind of guileless generic politician, I think.  Sort of like the guy I was trying to be when I ran for Congress a few years ago.  You put the program before the people - i.e.: Truth, Justice and the American Way - and see who signs on.  No P.R.  flacks.  No consultants. No market survey samples.  Just the program, folks.  Doesnít work in politics; I know.  Works in fiction, though, and it works in the hearts and souls of kids of all ages."
-- Elliot S! Maggin
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2003, 04:27:19 PM »

It sounds like the both of you are concerned about the integrity of the story.  It also sounds like there are more than a couple of people who want to see the next installment.

So, "Year of the Comet" will be online shortly.

S!
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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2003, 12:40:34 PM »

OK, here it is!



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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
Paul Sanders
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2003, 09:31:53 PM »

Thanks, Rao.

This is a really good story, and it really shows the care put into this issue.

I thank you, and I'll have that page up soon.

Paul Sanders
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2003, 09:42:38 PM »

This shows just what a huge mistake crisis was, what a waste!


That was a great story, can't wait for part 3! Smiley
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