New Mark Waid interview

[Captain Kal]

I have to agree with Julian that the beginning and end dates of the Silver Age have been interpreted differently depending on who is doing the interpreting.  It's not much different than real world archeological dating or other historical periods with various 'experts' disagreeing on the actual criteria to be used.

In this case, I've heard the most commonly used definition was the appearance of the Martian Manhunter in 1955 as the true start of the Silver Age.  The Golden Age was more marked by fantasy and magic while the Silver Age had a decidely stronger S.F. streak to it which is why J'Onn J'Onnz is perhaps most representative of this era.  The Bronze Age seems to be more character/theme driven while still retaining elements of its past eras.

The end of the SA is far more nebulous though I'd place it in different years for different companies.  Marvel left their SA in the early 1970s.  DC did so in the late 1970s/early 1980s.

IMHO

[JulianPerez]

Basically the Silver Age is the period in which super-heroes returned from limbo to reclaim the comics medium.  That's why the starting point is usually given as Showcase #4, which gave us a new Flash and proved to the powers-that-be that audiences were ready to try the concept again after years of romances, funny animals and westerns.

Interesting way of defining it. Consistent with Busiek's view, that ages only happen after periods of experimentation stop and a status quo sets in.

Certainly I'd credit the early days of Marvel as SA, plus all the Schwartz-led revivals of GA characters in modified form, but as early as '67 or so a lot of those concepts were already starting to run in circles.  I agree the early 70s brought some cool new ideas, but the direction they took was different enough from the Silver Age to make it a new age in itself.

While we're on the topic, what themes and concepts would you point to as being the breaking point between the "true" Silver Age and what came after it?

[nightwing]

While we're on the topic, what themes and concepts would you point to as being the breaking point between the "true" Silver Age and what came after it?

Well, first let me say we're in general agreement that the "Ages" don't start and stop as neatly as some would like to believe.  The debut of Superman in Action #1 is the only really clear starting point for any age, and the endings are way too nebulous to figure out more often than not.

That said, I think the accent on "relevance" in GL/GA, Spider-Man and elsewhere, the proliferation of minority heroes (coincident with the explosion of "blaxploitation" films), the streamlining of both Batman (who lost the cave, Robin and briefly the Rogue's Gallery) and Superman (who lost, for a bit longer, many trappings of the Weisinger era), the arrival of the Punisher, Wolverine, Deathlok, Jonah Hex, Manhunter, Friedrich's vengeful Spectre and other "anti-heroes"... these are just some clear mileposts that indicated the arrival of the Bronze Age.

I think the Bronze Age was marked by a retreat from the "clutter" of the Silver Age, a move to social relevance from science (or what passed for science in comics), and the first few heroes who muddied the line between good and evil (Punisher...was he good guy or villain?  Did I just see Manhunter stab a guy with a dirk?  Dracula's got his own comic? How many people did Conan behead with that wacky battle ax?).

But as with all ages, it wasn't a case of a clear, overnight stop and start.  Some characters hung unto their Silver Age mentality for a while yet, and others had made the transition early.

And for the record, I love much of the Bronze Age.  It's the age I discovered comics.

[JulianPerez]

Allow me to summarize the discussion thus far: Captain Kal makes the point that it is THEMES that distinguish various ages: that is, the Silver Age had a greater science fiction emphasis than the Golden Age did, and the Silver Age ended when the dominant themes switched from this to characterization-centered stories. When science fiction and science plausibility shows up, we can say that in comes the Silver Age and out goes the Golden. Nightwing follows the Busiek model: the Silver Age begins when superheroes rose to dominance in the wake of competing genres.

My point, though, was that it is TALENT that is the distinguishing definition of what ages are what, that comics can be defined into periods as to when talent converges, when lots of creative people are doing work at the same time, and when it relaxes – sort of like models of history where they break up history between years of war and years of peace. That is, the Silver Age was the Silver Age because (in the early years) they had Gardner Fox and John Broome and later, Stan Lee, Englehart, Gerber, Bates, and Mantlo.  

Thus, the end of Marvel’s Silver Age, if you go by talent, is when Steve Englehart and Steve Gerber left Marvel comics with the ascension of Gerry Conway to the EiC post. This might be followed by a “Baby Silver Age,” where nonetheless good works are produced at the House of Ideas by Kirby in his Marvel Second Coming, Roger Stern, Bill Mantlo, Doug Moenich, Don MacGregor. One good point as any to define the ending of the Marvel “Baby Silver Age” is John Byrne’s FANTASTIC FOUR, which was the first to evidence the Modern Age’s most sociopathic instinct, to destroy fictional worlds instead of creating them.

When did the DC Silver Age end? Well, I guess it happened when all the mediocre, average people started coming in; there was a point between 1975-1982 when every single DC Comic was written by either Gerry Conway or Marv Wolfman. Or at least, it sure did feel that way, didn’t it? The definitive end of the DC Silver Age had to be CRISIS, not just because of the break with DC’s storied history, but more significantly, it was followed by a nadir of talent where comics were given to artists not qualified to write.

[nightwing]

I'm not sure I buy into your theory, though it's interesting.

This is about as far as I'm willing to go: I believe end of the Silver Age is clearly coincident with the first large inpouring of fan-creators, a generation of budding pros who had grown up as fans.  And I agree in general that once they outnumbered the old guard, the end of greatness was inescapable.

[Captain Kal]

That's an interesting position considering the likes of E. Nelson Bridwell, Gerry Conway, Jim Shooter, and Cary Bates were former fans writing in just as lettercol fans themselves before.

I think you're overgeneralizing about fan-creators.  Some of the best writers were former fans themselves.

[JulianPerez]

Incidentally, the “Baby Silver Age” for Marvel between 1975-1983 is the closest I’ve come to saying that there was something not unlike what this website calls a “Bronze Age.”

Tying all this back into the discussion on Mark Waid’s comments, he says that the darkness is over and we’re headed into a new age. I disagree with Waid’s statement; themes may be on their way out but themes are cosmetic; the more important factor, talent, certainly is not on the way in. With the exception of wonderful new writer Dan Slott, I have yet to encounter any truly wonderful new writers to emerge in the past 3 years. The crucial element to the creation of a better age than the trough we’ve been in, namely, writers that can write, is missing.

The one thing that has happened recently that does reassure me that a new age is coming is the crash and failure of Byrne’s DOOM PATROL, a sales failure on the level of BATTLEFIELD: EARTH. It shows people have gotten exhausted with Byrne, who personifies the flash over substance mentality, arrogant, toxic contempt for history, and writer/artist singularity all in one individual. And for the most part, comics are being written by writers and drawn by artists who are two different people. The one change I have been able to detect is that instead of artists who can’t write, there are now more than ever, writers that can’t write: witness Warren Ellis and Brad Meltzer, who have probably never touched a brush in their whole lives but who nonetheless manage to be as godawful as any of the Image writer-artist founders.

Yes, there are average, even decent writers around: Millar is good when he wants to be, and Geoff Johns is overrated but still worth reading. But the thing is, average scribes have always been around; this does not define an age.

[Super Monkey]

Saying that the Golden age started with Action Comics #1 is easy.
Saying that the Sliver Age Started with Showcase #4 is easy. Well, for most people anyway

Saying when one age finished is not so easy.

The Golden Age finished for me when all the Superhero comics got cancelled, with only Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman running around at DC. If that doesn't mark the end of the Golden Age of hero comics, I don't know what would.

Yet, what the heck is that period during the 1950's? Where horror, true Crime, Sci-Fi, western, romance, etc ruled the day?
No one can agree as to what to call it.

When did the Bronze Age begin? For Superman that's easy, when Morty retired. For me and most, Mort as Editor IS the Sliver Age Superman, without him there is no Sliver Age Superman. Once Julie took over things change, the comic format change from 2 to 3 short stories per issue to one long story per issue. Also the artwork became more dramatic in that Kirby way (not art style, but in storytelling). Compare Swan's artwork in the Superman in the 60's to Superman in the 70's to see what I mean. The stories also started to get into the whole "relevance" movement. Jack Kirby leaving Marvel pretty much ends the Marvel Sliver Age. But, doesn't mean that Bronze Age comics are not as good as the Sliver Age, they are just different.

I think the problem comes in when people think of it like Olympic medals. This is one case where Silver and Bronze aren't necessarily less worthy than Gold. In fact, it's quite the reverse in many cases.

This is what Julian Perez is doing, one Age is not automatically better than another.

I respect the Golden, Sliver, and Bronze age equally.

It's only the Iron and Dark Ages that came later that I have a problem with, and even they were not ALL bad, just mostly bad, IMHO