Pre-Crisis Villians more powerful than Superman

[llozymandias]

If kryptonians had super-intelligence even on krypton, wouldn't you expect them to have advanced further than the guardians in science & technology?


    Cap you are right about how Darkseid became so much more powerfull in the "great darkness saga".  I still suspect he also had the anti life equation as well at that point.  The real reason Darkseid was the villain of that story was admiration of Jack Kirby.

[Captain Kal]

Two comments about unpowered Kryptonian super-intelligence, Ilozymandias (Hey, I think I spelled it right without copying it or looking).

One, super-intelligence is a relative thing.  To we normal level folks, once we're dealing with someone above us we're not really able to differentiate between them.  The Guardians may be several levels higher than Kryptonians but both races would be far above us anyway.

Two, the Guardians had at least five billion years to develop their tech even if they had the same super-intelligence.  So, all other things being equal, Kryptonians had anywhere from thousands to millions of years to work with, so the Oans had a clear 1,000 x headstart advantage.  We might recall that the first Oan controls on the universe involved relatively primitive stun guns and android technology not the miraculous power rings and Miracle Machines of Guardian and Controller design of much later.

I think the documented facts about unpowered super-intelligence on Krypton are not inconsistent with Oan achievements given the above.

[llozymandias]

Kal-El was self-educated.  He learned kryptonian science & technology by studying (reverse engineering) any & all examples of it that he found.  Imagine the knowledge that the Guardians (& Controllers) must have.  Considering the fact that they (as individuals) are 10 billion years old.  They could be of ordinary human level intelligence & still achieve miracles.  Kal's super-intellect enabled him to accumulate vast knoweledge about just about everything.  When he loses his powers (which include his super-intellect) he still has his super-knowledge.

[Duplicate Man]

I'm not sure that Kryptonians were "super intellegent" on Krypton.  They certainly had a higher tech-level than Earth, although they lacked space travel, but that doesn't mean higher intellegence.  However, the yellow sun probably boosted Superman's mental speed and memory, and he was the son of Kryptons greatest scientist, so it's not surprising that he's very smart with or without powers.

[JulianPerez]

I only own the Kirby fourth world works, however, I have yet to see a single case of Darkseid demonstrating limitless physical power that would make him an equal - to say nothing of a MATCH - for Superman. I have no idea where writers got the idea in their heads that Darkseid was more powerful than Superman physically. If anything, Darkseid may be as dangerous as Superman because of the subtlety of his schemes and his ability to plan and his access to limitlessly advanced technology, but not because of sheer physical power.

Captain Kal brought up the DC Heroes RPG Sourcebook, which was constructed with research over several years. It is not without its errors (Superman had no super-smell or super-shout powers, for example) but it was a useful comparison based system. Darkseid's stats, in the 1985 edition, are as follows:

Dexterity: 7
Strength: 18
Body: 27

Now, for comparison, Strength: 30 is the score the Martian Manhunter was given. Strength: 50 is Superman. Body (a statistic that measures toughness) for Superman is 40.

This may not be relevant, but since Darkseid's powers were brought up, I always loved how Jack Kirby used unusual verbs to describe powers in operation, which made one think that possibly there was more to a power than one would think.

For instance, Darkseid says that "I have loosed the Omega Effect!" Now, that single word - loosed - implies a different way the power works than "fired." Can Darkseid control the Omega Effect when it is released? Is he constantly holding it back? It makes one think.

For instance, in NEW GODS #6 or so, Orion says "I can still contact the Astro-Force!"

"Contact" the Astro-Force? This word choice implies there is something more to the Astro-Force than just a laser beam he fires from his harness.

[TELLE]

Isn't he a powerful threat in those classic Legion stories?

[Captain Kal]

I think you missed my post earlier on this thread, Telle.

Darkseid 'at his strongest' in The Great Darkness Saga had just stolen power from all the 30th century's most powerful beings and objects of power.  He is a far cry much more powerful than regular Darkseid of the 20th century because of that.

Even the DCH RPG stats on him reflect this.  His regular 20th century stats are far lower than Superman's while his 30th century ones in the LSH sourcebook are far higher.

LSH Darkseid is uber-boosted Darkseid.  That's not his natural nor normal power-level.

[Captain Kal]

Kal-El was self-educated.  He learned kryptonian science & technology by studying (reverse engineering) any & all examples of it that he found.  Imagine the knowledge that the Guardians (& Controllers) must have.  Considering the fact that they (as individuals) are 10 billion years old.  They could be of ordinary human level intelligence & still achieve miracles.  Kal's super-intellect enabled him to accumulate vast knoweledge about just about everything.  When he loses his powers (which include his super-intellect) he still has his super-knowledge.

That might explain the example where Superman used native materials on a red sun world to make a superrobot, etc.  He was just remembering how to do that.

OTOH, that doesn't explain the I.Q. example where he instantly comprehended then corrected the flaw in I.Q.'s complex mathematical formulae.  Superman had never seen this before so it's a matter of comprehension not memory, therefore he was exercising super-intelligence here without the sun to boost his brain.