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Author Topic: Favorite Superheroes Besides Superman & the Superman Fam  (Read 28212 times)
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Uncle Mxy
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2005, 02:41:43 PM »

My anti-heroes are Barry Ween, Boy Genius and Hitman.  

I love Dr. Strange when he's done right (which is to say, not lately).  Same for Spider-Man, and Ultimate Spidey is actually darn good stuff on the whole (except for the issues featuring Ultimate Dr. Strange).

I have a hard time thinking about this without thinking about crap writers that have given my favorites bad story arcs, so I find myself gravitating to  characters that have long runs with one good writer, which is more about the writers than the characters.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2005, 05:19:31 PM »

Quote from: "TELLE"
Er, I guess .... me?

He was that boring guy in Secret Society of Supervillains, right?


Well, I was saying that ironically because of how unjustly overlooked he was.

...Yeah, that's him. Though no work of fifties work is complete without at least one John Broome "Captain Comet" story in STRANGE ADVENTURES. John Broome, when writing Flash or Captain Comet, was a real treat of a writer, right up there with Gardner Fox.

http://www.toonopedia.com/capcomet.htm

Here's a link that explains the deal. It should be worth noting that technically, Captain Comet was the first superhero of the Silver Age; he was created after the Justice Society folded, arguably the defining end of the Golden Age. One thing I genuinely like about Captain Comet is that he has remained completely untouched by revisionism: he never received a HAWKWORLD or a MAN OF STEEL or a TWILIGHT or a LONGBOW HUNTERS that transformed him into an unrecognizeable form. He's still "the Man of Destiny."

SSoSV was his last shot at the big time; it's worth noting that the Martian Manhunter was invited to join the Justice League, and though he was mentioned in a few early JLA issues by Gardner Fox, he was never invited to join that group.

I read online a series proposal by Bob Rozakis which would have been for a new Captain Comet series in the late 1970s:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/bobro/99588498838532.htm

Some of the concepts here are interesting: the idea of captain comet having a "vibro-sense" used to detect emotions (similar to the sense used by the Mantis)...and the fact that Captain Comet is still physically in his thirties, but his Adam Blake secret identity has to pretend to be much, much older.
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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2005, 06:06:33 PM »

Quote
Captain Comet. It's like the Silver Age is encapsulated in a single man. Who can forget his rocketship, the Cometeer, operating on "Spectrum Drive?" Who could forget Professor Zackro? Who could forget the wonderful sloganeering: "Man of Destiny" and "Man of 100,000 AD!" His origin is top-notch. His powers are far from a boring suite endorsed by the Superman clones (*ahem* Captain Marvel), but included various other science fiction related abilities, like Telepathy and Telekinesis.


I know you were just joking, but I must say that one of the greatest myths of Comic Books is that Captain Marvel is a Superman clone.

DC sued Fawcet because Captain Marvel was outselling Superman during Superman's peak run! Captain Marvel's comics were selling over a million copies each and they were bi-weekly! DC didn't win the lawsuit, Fawcet ran out of money fighting them in court and were forced to close their doors. Later DC brought him and made him part of teh DC Universe.

The bitter irony of all this is that MOST of what we think of as Superman, was taken from Captain Marvel!

Captain Marvel was flying a whole year before Superman started copying him.
Captain Marvel, Jr. came before Superboy.
Hoppy the Marvel Bunny came way before any of the Super-pets.
Mary Marvel came before Supergirl (both created by the great Otto Binder)
The idea of having other Marvels, came before other Supermen.
There was the Marvel Family long before there was a Superman Family.
Captain Marvel had comedy, Sci-Fi and fantasy elements in his comics before Superman ever did.
Heck DC went as far as making Lex Luther bald to match Dr. Sivana!
And I can keep going... and going, and going.
Sadly because Captain Marvel comics have been OOP for so long, most people do not know the real story of how DC tried so hard to make Superman like Captain Marvel.

As a result you can still read, articles today calling Captain Marvel a cheap knock off,  :roll:
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2005, 06:58:25 PM »

No argument here. I was making a point that certain characters tend to borrow the Superman power suite and this is quite boring, a crime Captain Comet was not guilty of. While I thought George Perez's WONDER WOMAN reboot was alright and actually an improvement in certain ways (Ares was very frightening) I did not like that Wonder Woman, who previously had various unique powers like gliding and bullet-blocking and had a telepathic robot plane, was made to fly fast and be invulnerable. Gee, how innovative.

CAPTAIN MARVEL is arguably the most influential superhero comic of all time. The acid-trip zany weirdness incorporating science fiction and fantasy elements like space travel was a prelude to the worldbuilding and enemies and situations apart from the usual golden age suite of gangsters and fifth columnists; in the Golden Age, usually the existence of the hero was the only departure from reality. CAPTAIN MARVEL is probably the direct comic that led to the Silver Age - at least the aesthetic that defined the Silver Age.

It's interesting to note that in the early days of DC comics, DC assumed all of its stories were set in the "real" world. When the Silver Age came around which followed the Captain Marvel model of goat scientists, talking tigers, and Venus ruled by the Sivanas, it was more and more apparent that the DC Earth, which featured places like Gorilla City and Aquaman's Atlantis, was clearly NOT our own world and the writers set up the concept of "Earth-1." I don't think it happened by Gardner Fox and John Broome and the others getting together around a table and saying "okay, now THIS is Earth-1." The gradual creeping in of fantasy and science fiction elements made DC-Earth so different that it just HAD to be a different place; how people thought of it shifted gradually the more lost cities of gorillas they added.

And I didn't notice the Sivana/Luthor baldness connection until you pointed it out.  Cheesy

As for characters that qualify as "honorable mentions" on my list of favorites and bringing us back on topic:


Silverclaw. Mr. Busiek, kudos on this original creation! Silverclaw had a wonderful personality; a charming, sweet girl from a tiny South American nation, she has a profound desire to be liked and accepted. I am by far inured to cuteness, but Silverclaw crying when she finds her "Tio Jarvis" melted even my withered black heart. Her sentimentality, youth and sparkle-eyed idealism is honest, and so she is not emotionally manipulative or cloying as she could have been. Forget the character appearing in SUPERMAN/BATMAN - Silverclaw is the REAL return of Supergirl! Her national origin (an indigenous South American) makes her different from other shapeshifters; she can turn into cockatoos, boa constrictors, panthers, and llamas (!). She is one of the more distinctive looking female Avengers, mostly because of her ethnic appearance; most other superheroines have Ms. Marvel's face and body. While in general I am not a fan of computer coloring and highlighting in the least, but it WORKS for Silverclaw, whose shiny silver skin would have been a dull gray with the four color "dot" coloring of previous generations.

Why is this character not more frequently used? Well, probably because two of the writers that took over AVENGERS later, Chuck Austen and Brian Michael Bendis, cannot write and wouldn't recognize a character with story potential if they walked up to them and shook their hand at a convention. It's worth noting that one of the few writers to use Silverclaw apart from her creator is Steve Englehart in AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST.

Perhaps it is that in his Kulan Gath tale, Busiek told the definitive Silverclaw story. All I know is, if I was a writer, I wouldn't want to follow THAT one up.  Cheesy


Just Imagine Stan Lee's Sandman. Most of these characters were meant to be one-shots, a thought exercise centered around Stan Lee working with various famous writers, meant to show how Stan the Man would write the various DC Heroes. His concepts were good on many occasions, but really, I hope something more could have been done with this particular character. He was a tough but savvy astronaut who was on occasion, cowardly in a practical way, running away from trouble, endorsing superheroism for the love of a woman instead of for a truly altruistic calling. The "Dream World" background was intense: nightmare demons that could possess people, an entire world that can only be visited in sleep. Granted, we've seen all this before in PROMETHEA, but Alan Moore's pedantic, dry monologues about the nature of reality sucked all the fun out of the dream world (and from PROMETHEA), here it was a fun background with floating islands used for battles with shapechanging nightmare creatures.
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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2005, 08:47:29 PM »

SuperMonkey wrote:

Quote
DC didn't win the lawsuit, Fawcet ran out of money fighting them in court and were forced to close their doors. Later DC brought him and made him part of teh DC Universe.


Actually what I heard was that Fawcett took a good look at comics sales in the mid-50s, saw the writing on the wall and said, the heck with all these lawyer fees, we're getting out of the comics business! (They went on doing magazines, some of which I think are still in print today!) While it may have been our loss to have Cap go out of print, in the end it was his gain.  He went out on top, or nearly so, and that's more than will ever be said for Superman or most superheroes.  If DC had just kept their grubby paws off Cap, he'd still have an unblemished record today.

Quote

Captain Marvel was flying a whole year before Superman started copying him.
Captain Marvel, Jr. came before Superboy.
Hoppy the Marvel Bunny came way before any of the Super-pets.
Mary Marvel came before Supergirl (both created by the great Otto Binder)
The idea of having other Marvels, came before other Supermen.
There was the Marvel Family long before there was a Superman Family.
Captain Marvel had comedy, Sci-Fi and fantasy elements in his comics before Superman ever did.
Heck DC went as far as making Lex Luther bald to match Dr. Sivana!
And I can keep going... and going, and going.


Well, you cheated a bit there by listing Junior and Mary separately and then again as the "family," but of course you're right.

It's no coincidence that all these Cap-like elements crept into the Super-mythos soon after the Fawcett titles folded.  Otto Binder, Cap's chief scribe, made the move to DC and introduced many of the concepts you listed off.  So you could make the argument that the Superman most of us (on this board anyway) know and love would never have existed without a "transfusion" from the Big Red Cheese!  :shock:

JulianPerez writes:

Quote
It's interesting to note that in the early days of DC comics, DC assumed all of its stories were set in the "real" world. When the Silver Age came around which followed the Captain Marvel model of goat scientists, talking tigers, and Venus ruled by the Sivanas, it was more and more apparent that the DC Earth, which featured places like Gorilla City and Aquaman's Atlantis, was clearly NOT our own world and the writers set up the concept of "Earth-1." I don't think it happened by Gardner Fox and John Broome and the others getting together around a table and saying "okay, now THIS is Earth-1." The gradual creeping in of fantasy and science fiction elements made DC-Earth so different that it just HAD to be a different place; how people thought of it shifted gradually the more lost cities of gorillas they added.


Actually I think at the start Earth-1 was supposed to be our Earth.  The first time the multiple Earth concept is mentioned, Barry Allen says something like, "On my Earth, Jay, your adventures only happened in comic books.  A writer named Gardner Fox said they came to him in dreams."  The clear implication is that Fox -- and the rest of the DC bullpen and by extension we the readers -- live on Barry's Earth.  Only later did we get the notion of Earth-Prime ("our" Earth...sadly superhero-less) and Fox, plus Julie, Elliot, Cary Bates and various others were shown living (t)here as opposed to Earth-1.

This raises an interesting question: did Earth-1 have a comics industry identical to that of Earth-Prime up until the mid-50s and if so what happened to it?  Presumably on Earth-1 there would have been no Showcase #4 (Barry would have noticed a comic book relating his own experiences) and thus no Brave and Bold #28, no Fantastic Four #1 and so on.  Did Earth-1's comic book industry stay with funny animals, Westerns and horror titles or did it go out of business entirely?  Oddly, there are several references to DC comics in the comics themselves, like this one:



So maybe there WAS a "Silver Age of Comics" on Earth-1.  But if so, what would those comics be like?  Logically they couldn't reveal the secret IDs of superheroes who were active in real life (or else all Lois would have to do is buy an issue of Action COmics to know "the secret").  So did they feature all-action stories of heroes with no reference to secret ID's?  Or did they create fictitious IDs for the heroes?  What would comics be like with no sub-plots about a hero's private life?  How would the heroes react to these things being on the stands...would they sue to get DC shut down, or would they welcome tales that helped hide their actual identities?

Sad isn't it...40 years old and I still don't have a life.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2005, 09:11:41 PM »

A lot of people mention their favorite as being Green Lantern in some way, I've noticed. This isn't a criticism, just an observation: is it possible it isn't so much the character himself, but the amount of worldbuilding that went around him? In my own Top Ten list, I mentioned that I loved the Black Panther, but less so for him than for things like the Techno-Jungle and the Dora Milaje, which surround him.

Quote from: "KlarKen T5477"
Congorilla (just cause its sooooooooooooooo weird)


Dang it! Why didn't I think of this? Because if you don't like a giant gold gorilla whose mind you can switch to by rubbing a ring...well, you don't like anything. Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2005, 10:28:03 PM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
Well, you cheated a bit there by listing Junior and Mary separately and then again as the "family," but of course you're right.


It was a bit of a cheat but we can also include The Lieutenant Marvels (Tall Marvel, Fat Marvel and Hill Billy Marvel), Uncle Marvel, Freckles Marvel  :wink: , and even Baby Marvel  Tongue , the Marvel Family was just as big as Superman's, and a lot sillier of course, but in a good way Smiley

Superman also borrowed Bizarro as well!

Niatpac Levram was the creation of the devilish Wizzo the Wizard! The wizard created Levram as a mirror duplicate of Captain Marvel by casting a spell and animating Cap's image from a mirror.

CAPTAIN MARVEL ADVENTURES No. 139, Dec 1952

Bizarro 1st appeared a whole 6 years later, in a story by none other than Otto Binder! Cool

Quote
It's no coincidence that all these Cap-like elements crept into the Super-mythos soon after the Fawcett titles folded.  Otto Binder, Cap's chief scribe, made the move to DC and introduced many of the concepts you listed off.  So you could make the argument that the Superman most of us (on this board anyway) know and love would never have existed without a "transfusion" from the Big Red Cheese!  :shock:


It's true, there just wouldn't be a Sliver Age Superman without the funny little kid with the red shirt  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2005, 11:56:36 PM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Superman also borrowed Bizarro as well!

Niatpac Levram was the creation of the devilish Wizzo the Wizard! The wizard created Levram as a mirror duplicate of Captain Marvel by casting a spell and animating Cap's image from a mirror.

CAPTAIN MARVEL ADVENTURES No. 139, Dec 1952

I've got that story! It was reprinted in Shazam! #2 (April 1973). I just read it again, and the backward names and talking reminds me of two earlier DC characters--Mr. Mxyztplk (1944) and Zatara (1938).

I'm going to dismiss a Zatara/Wizzo connection, since Wizzo didn't use backward talking to do his magic.

But the Niatpac Levram/Mxyztplk connection intrigues me. To my knowledge, Mxy was the silliest thing in a Superman comic in the GA. Was Mxy "original", or was Jerry Siegel "borrowing" something from Cap that early? Or is it possible that Otto Binder "borrowed" Mxy to make Levram?
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