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Author Topic: IC #1 - At last they return  (Read 89380 times)
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« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2005, 02:07:31 AM »

With that, welcome to the board Dakota Smith, we tend not to be the gloom and doom types for the most part around here Smiley

Check out the rest of this site to see what I mean. Enjoy your stay.

Also, welcome Al Schroeder, I hope you stick around and have fun as well.


Just remember It's Superman, it is suppose to be fun and if anyone ever tells you different, than they don't know Superman like we know Superman, or at least the real Superman.
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DakotaSmith
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« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2005, 02:16:12 AM »

Thanks muchly for the welcome.  I'm a huge fan of the site in general, having read the online comics for ... well, I guess about since they started going up.  You'll find that at other sites where I'm generally more active (http://www.trekbbs, for example), I push this site as a resource for Superman -- back when he really was the Man of Tomorrow.

I'm also a huge Elliot S! Maggin fan, and a believer that he's quite possibly the only human being on the planet who really understands Superman and his supporting cast.

As to my introductory post on this BBS ...

Well, I'm a lifelong Superman fan, and I've watched this depressing descent into the horrific for a long, long time, now.  I most assuredly do not agree with it, but the universe is what it is, not what we want it to be.  And the DCU as it presently stands is what it is:  it definitely isn't what I want it to be.

I'm thrilled to see the real Man Of Steel return.  I hope/pray/cross my fingers that they don't manage to mess him up.  If they do, well, I guess there's always Superman Through the Ages for the real thing.

Dakota Smith
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« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2005, 02:43:01 AM »

Quote from: "DakotaSmith"


Make no mistake:  the writers and artists currently at DC enjoy writing and drawing this kind of story.  They enjoy wallowing in the muck and mire that is the Goth sensibility.  They believe that life is hollow, meaningless, and inherently painful, and that to believe otherwise is simply to be fooling oneself.  They believe that the only way to be true to yourself is to embrace the horror that is everyday life, wallow in it, immerse yourself in the disgusting filth and revel in the grand meaninglessness and destruction.
How do I know that's what they believe?  I used to be one of them, long ago and far away.


I still find it confusing and sort of sad, I guess.  I still can't understand how embracing and even wallowing in the horror that is everyday life --a sort of gleeful nihilism-- translates into going out of your way to write comic book stories in which funny little characters from the 1940s are tortured and murdered, told with ugly, amateurish drawings, no less.  There is embracing horror and then there is actively creating horror.  I'm as atheistic and cynical as they come (I like to think), but the whole exercise seems kind of pointless.  More than anything it seems juvenile and very misogynist.  Popular culture, including underground and minicomics, has been doing it longer and with greater artistic success.
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2005, 03:23:41 AM »

Quote from: "TELLE"

I still find it confusing and sort of sad, I guess.  I still can't understand how embracing and even wallowing in the horror that is everyday life


Well, see, they start from the wrong place right at first principles:  everyday life is not horrific.

Are there parts of everyday life that are horrific?  Absolutely.  All you have to do to observe this is just look at Hurricane Katrina.

But are there parts of everyday life that are joyful?  Absolutely!  And all one needs to do to observe this is look at Hurricane Katrina.

The difference is your perspective.  The perspective of pop-culture -- and the subset of pop-culture that is comic books -- is simply wrong in the first place.

Quote from: "TELLE"
--a sort of gleeful nihilism-- translates into going out of your way to write comic book stories in which funny little characters from the 1940s are tortured and murdered, told with ugly, amateurish drawings, no less.  There is embracing horror and then there is actively creating horror.  I'm as atheistic and cynical as they come (I like to think), but the whole exercise seems kind of pointless.  More than anything it seems juvenile and very misogynist.  Popular culture, including underground and minicomics, has been doing it longer and with greater artistic success.


Interestingly enough, I really did have a conversation with a Goth girl recently -- something I rarely do because it's so utterly futile.  She was aroun 19, I'm 40.  She truly believes that deep in every human's soul, they are sadistic and altogether willing to gleefully rape, maim, and kill if only society's rules and governments laws didn't prevent them.

As I say, talking with her was a pointless exercise in futility that ultimately boiled down to me finally having to say, "Little girl, anyone can wallow in their own pain.  There's no trick to that at all. If you sit there wallowing in pain and filth, then all you're going to end up with in life is a lot of pain and messiness.  There's more out there -- if you want it."

Again, a waste of time, but it needed to be said.

Dakota Smith
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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2005, 05:35:33 AM »

Quote from: "DakotaSmith"
Again, a waste of time, but it needed to be said.

If it needed to be said, then it wasn't a waste of time.

S!
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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2005, 08:10:48 AM »

Superboy Prime is back.

THANK YOU, DC!!!

Last year, a wonderful tribute in SECRET IDENTITY. Now, the return of the original one.
Thank you again.
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« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2005, 08:11:15 AM »

Quote from: "DakotaSmith"
[Are there parts of everyday life that are horrific?  Absolutely.  All you have to do to observe this is just look at Hurricane Katrina.


Or most current DC comics.

I find that Goth girls and the so-called Goth subculture in general hold many conflicting opinions and are by no means of one mind when it comes to philosophy.  As a teen, I knew many clean-cut, chess-club types who held opinions similar to your Goth girl --you just never can tell.

More on the coming apocalypse:



Quote
Recalibrating DC Heroes for a Grittier Century

By GEORGE GENE GUSTINES

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/12/books/12dc.html

 

If there was ever a job for Superman, this is it.

DC Comics is in the midst of a major effort to revitalize the company's fabled superheroes for the 21st century and better connect with today's readers. The undertaking, which began in 2002, has involved a critical look at DC's characters - from Aquaman and Batman to Zatanna - and developing story lines that sometimes have heroes engage in decidedly unheroic deeds.

One of the goals, DC executives say, is to hold on to a more sophisticated readership.

"Our characters were created in the 1940's and 50's and 60's," Dan DiDio, the DC Comics vice president for editorial, said. "There's a lot of elements where we've had a disconnect with the reader base of today."

Readers now, Mr. DiDio said, "are more savvy, and they're looking for more complexity and more depth for them to be following the stories on a monthly basis." A crucial phase of the campaign starts today with the release of "Infinite Crisis," the first of a seven-part monthly series that will bring together all the story threads - and the superheroes - that have been evolving in separate series over the past three years.

Toward the end of "Infinite Crisis," the characters will be catapulted a year into the future, some emerging with significantly new outlooks. To explain their transformation, next May DC will begin publishing "52," a yearlong weekly series set in "real" time chronicling the gap in the heroes' lives. By the end of the process, DC hopes to have recreated a universe of superheroes more in keeping with the times.

"Our audience is much smarter, much more sophisticated, and not necessarily because it's older," said Greg Rucka, a writer working on DC's plan. "A 12-year-old 20 years ago and a 12-year-old today are reading at very different levels. That's just the way it is."

He added: "Everything has to evolve."

Several writers are working to further that evolution. They include Geoff Johns, a fan-favorite creator who helped revitalize "Teen Titans" and "Green Lantern"; Grant Morrison, who pushed the Justice League to new heights of popularity; Mr. Rucka, a novelist whose comics work includes runs on Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman; and Mark Waid, a former editor at DC and an expert on the accumulated histories of DC's heroes. Others involved in the project include Keith Giffen, who will provide page layouts for "52," and George Pérez, an artist held in high regard whose style guides will give DC's heroes a consistent look.

The approach was more like the team model for writing a television series than the traditional solitary one for comics, said Paul Levitz, the president and publisher of DC, a unit of Time Warner.

Revitalizing old characters is not without risk. In 1996, Marvel Entertainment, DC's archrival, made over some of its oldest heroes. The "Heroes Reborn" project included new origin stories that took place in a parallel universe. But the project was not popular with readers; eventually the characters were returned to their original stories. In 2000, Marvel tried again with a much more successful "Ultimate" line of comics.

DC's move to remake its superheroes has led to bold decisions:

¶Last year, the "Identity Crisis" mini-series, written by Brad Meltzer, a novelist, had the Justice League retaliating for the rape of a hero's wife by brainwashing the villain - a turn of events that drove some fans to the Internet to vent their concern over DC's direction. The series was one of the year's best-selling titles.

¶This past year, tension among Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, the pillars of the DC universe, has been running high and erupted in July when Wonder Woman resorted to killing a man to save the Man of Steel.

¶The one-year gap that results from the "Infinite Crisis" will allow a hard look at every DC title with the question "What works about this character for the 21st century?" Mr. Waid said. Some titles may end up being canceled. Others will get a change of editors or writers.

¶"52," the weekly series that begins in May, will be a story-telling and production challenge. A weekly series leaves little room for delays in writing, illustrating or printing, and the "real time" concept means no inventory story can be dropped in to fill a gap in the narrative.

The commitment of resources "scared a lot of departments," Mr. DiDio said, adding, "This is not just an editorial risk; it's a company risk."

If fans embrace the new DC superhero universe, the gamble will be worth it. Last year, the comic book industry generated nearly $500 million in sales. Milton Griepp, the publisher and founder of ICv2, an online trade publication that covers popular culture for retailers, estimated that monthly comics accounted for about $290 million of that sum. (The rest came from trade paperbacks.) Industry estimates for August's market share, in dollars, placed DC at 38 percent and Marvel at 41 percent.

What about fans who feel that DC is becoming too dark a place to visit?

Mr. DiDio and Mr. Levitz agreed that there would be opportunities for course correction. If one of the writers feels "we're off track, we'll regroup," Mr. DiDio said.

While some readers have posted complaints on the Internet that superheroes have become entangled in grimmer stories of late, DC creators note that even its most illustrious heroes' tales have dark roots. It was the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents that spawned Batman; the story of Superman began with the destruction of his home planet, Krypton.

"I think people feel it's dark because it's so compelling," Mr. DiDio said. "They don't know how our heroes are going to get out of the danger."

Mr. Rucka agreed: "When they're saying 'it's too dark,' they're saying, 'I'm scared.' "

He added, "It's not a crisis if they know they're going to win."
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« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2005, 10:22:54 AM »

Quote from: "TELLE"



Quote
Recalibrating DC Heroes for a Grittier Century

By GEORGE GENE GUSTINES

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/12/books/12dc.html

 

If there was ever a job for Superman, this is it.

DC Comics is in the midst of a major effort to revitalize the company's fabled superheroes for the 21st century and better connect with today's readers. The undertaking, which began in 2002, has involved a critical look at DC's characters - from Aquaman and Batman to Zatanna - and developing story lines that sometimes have heroes engage in decidedly unheroic deeds.

One of the goals, DC executives say, is to hold on to a more sophisticated readership.

"Our characters were created in the 1940's and 50's and 60's," Dan DiDio, the DC Comics vice president for editorial, said. "There's a lot of elements where we've had a disconnect with the reader base of today."

Readers now, Mr. DiDio said, "are more savvy, and they're looking for more complexity and more depth for them to be following the stories on a monthly basis." A crucial phase of the campaign starts today with the release of "Infinite Crisis," the first of a seven-part monthly series that will bring together all the story threads - and the superheroes - that have been evolving in separate series over the past three years.

Toward the end of "Infinite Crisis," the characters will be catapulted a year into the future, some emerging with significantly new outlooks. To explain their transformation, next May DC will begin publishing "52," a yearlong weekly series set in "real" time chronicling the gap in the heroes' lives. By the end of the process, DC hopes to have recreated a universe of superheroes more in keeping with the times.

"Our audience is much smarter, much more sophisticated, and not necessarily because it's older," said Greg Rucka, a writer working on DC's plan. "A 12-year-old 20 years ago and a 12-year-old today are reading at very different levels. That's just the way it is."

He added: "Everything has to evolve."

Several writers are working to further that evolution. They include Geoff Johns, a fan-favorite creator who helped revitalize "Teen Titans" and "Green Lantern"; Grant Morrison, who pushed the Justice League to new heights of popularity; Mr. Rucka, a novelist whose comics work includes runs on Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman; and Mark Waid, a former editor at DC and an expert on the accumulated histories of DC's heroes. Others involved in the project include Keith Giffen, who will provide page layouts for "52," and George Pérez, an artist held in high regard whose style guides will give DC's heroes a consistent look.

The approach was more like the team model for writing a television series than the traditional solitary one for comics, said Paul Levitz, the president and publisher of DC, a unit of Time Warner.

Revitalizing old characters is not without risk. In 1996, Marvel Entertainment, DC's archrival, made over some of its oldest heroes. The "Heroes Reborn" project included new origin stories that took place in a parallel universe. But the project was not popular with readers; eventually the characters were returned to their original stories. In 2000, Marvel tried again with a much more successful "Ultimate" line of comics.

DC's move to remake its superheroes has led to bold decisions:

¶Last year, the "Identity Crisis" mini-series, written by Brad Meltzer, a novelist, had the Justice League retaliating for the rape of a hero's wife by brainwashing the villain - a turn of events that drove some fans to the Internet to vent their concern over DC's direction. The series was one of the year's best-selling titles.

¶This past year, tension among Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, the pillars of the DC universe, has been running high and erupted in July when Wonder Woman resorted to killing a man to save the Man of Steel.

¶The one-year gap that results from the "Infinite Crisis" will allow a hard look at every DC title with the question "What works about this character for the 21st century?" Mr. Waid said. Some titles may end up being canceled. Others will get a change of editors or writers.

¶"52," the weekly series that begins in May, will be a story-telling and production challenge. A weekly series leaves little room for delays in writing, illustrating or printing, and the "real time" concept means no inventory story can be dropped in to fill a gap in the narrative.

The commitment of resources "scared a lot of departments," Mr. DiDio said, adding, "This is not just an editorial risk; it's a company risk."

If fans embrace the new DC superhero universe, the gamble will be worth it. Last year, the comic book industry generated nearly $500 million in sales. Milton Griepp, the publisher and founder of ICv2, an online trade publication that covers popular culture for retailers, estimated that monthly comics accounted for about $290 million of that sum. (The rest came from trade paperbacks.) Industry estimates for August's market share, in dollars, placed DC at 38 percent and Marvel at 41 percent.

What about fans who feel that DC is becoming too dark a place to visit?

Mr. DiDio and Mr. Levitz agreed that there would be opportunities for course correction. If one of the writers feels "we're off track, we'll regroup," Mr. DiDio said.


While some readers have posted complaints on the Internet that superheroes have become entangled in grimmer stories of late, DC creators note that even its most illustrious heroes' tales have dark roots. It was the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents that spawned Batman; the story of Superman began with the destruction of his home planet, Krypton.

"I think people feel it's dark because it's so compelling," Mr. DiDio said. "They don't know how our heroes are going to get out of the danger."

Mr. Rucka agreed: "When they're saying 'it's too dark,' they're saying, 'I'm scared.' "

He added, "It's not a crisis if they know they're going to win."


Oh please. From that DiDio demonstrates little more than being Bill Jemas 2.0. They truck out the same cliched crap everytime people call them on how needlessly bleak they're making things. Same freakin song every time. Oh the audience is too "sophisticated" or the older readers are just "scared" and "afraid of change". They always make it seem like a choice between too extremes, it's either darkness which is apparently sophisticated just because, and the Silver Age.

What they really mean is that stories with a sense of adventure and wonder with heroes good and true who triumph and save the day are just too hard to write. They don't have the talent or the guts for it unless its a special project on the side like New Frontier and they'll show the love by not promoting it. It's easier to go for the cheap heat. Have your character deathlist handy and say "sales are down, who's getting killed and/or raped today?" and throw your dart. Done and done. Let's face it, stuff like Identity Crisis is just saying "Hey we can be Watchmen too and we'll do it to the icons! Oh god we're so edgy we cut ourselves!"

I think not only would a change in tone be a welcome one but at this point it'd be the most radical thing they could possibly do. You wanna shake things up, then show me a DC Universe that isn't just a constant suckfest!
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