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Author Topic: IC #1 - At last they return  (Read 91060 times)
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DakotaSmith
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« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2005, 05:16:02 PM »

Quote from: "ShinDangaioh"
I would like to recommend Flare for your child to read, but I can't.  Flare is the mortal reincarnation of a Greek diety.  Would you allow your children to read all of Greek myth(Heracles sleeping with his male friend or Zeus and his many lovers) or look at all of Greek art(celebration of the human body)?  Other than a lot of the Greek art element, it would be allowable for your child to read it.


My objection to it would be largely based on context.  I'd have to read it and get the context before I knew for sure.  Now that it's been brought to my attention, I'll see if my local store (Acme Comics -- two-time winner and current holder of the Eisner Award for Best Retailer) has a copy.

However, the main problem isn't necessarily my objection, it's my childrens'.  They're 10 and 12, and at those ages, sex of any kind (hetero or homo) is just repulsive.  They don't even sit still well for kissing.  The kissing scene between Diana and Bruce in Starcrossed elicited the only outraged "Ewwwwww!!" from them of the entire movie.

It's kind of what I'm talking about in "marketing to children."  You have to understand your audience, and the pre-teen audience just doesn't want to see anything resembling sex.

Dakota Smith
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The Zero Aggression Principle:  "No human being has the right under any circumstances to initiate force against another human being, nor to threaten or delegate its initiation."
Super Monkey
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« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2005, 05:17:44 PM »

It's odd that the only woman who was killed got the most graphic death.
Oh, and they killed Uncle Sam.

To me this website below sums up everything that the Modern "Superhero" comics stand for: http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/

If someone wanted me to show them why I don't read comics anymore, I would just post that link.


I don't mind cheesecake, but not cheescake drenched in blood and bile.
That's just gross.
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"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
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Kuuga
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« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2005, 05:29:30 PM »

You're right Dakota, that scene in New Frontier (as is pretty much every other page in that book) was excellent. I still have severe problems with Superman being in the kind of government stooge role but at least that's where he starts when the story begins and not where he ends up. That 3-4 page conversation with Superman and Batman with Robin there
prolly brought the biggest smile to my face that a comicbook (especially one with Batman in it) has in many,many years.

The scene makes alot of good points, not least of which is what Batman and Robins relationship is really about. It's not about being a couple or a crazed psycho torturing a little boy, but about freindship. You also notice that the scene is not even saying that Batman should be as Dick Sprang portrayed him. In the scene Batman even with the altered costume is still cape over his shoulders and shadowy. But it's more that the character when in costume is generating his proper mysterious aura rather than projecting a monsterously corrupted soul. His DISGUISE strikes fear and terror into the hearts of CRIMINALS. The costume is a weapon not a psychosis. Batman is haunted by the past of course, but he's not a bitter and paranoid loon.

I really loved seeing Robin portrayed as a kid who was acrobatic and full of life. That scene is about everything that Frank Millers cynically diseased mind cannot get. He'd prolly start melting like the Wicked Witch of West if he ever read New Frontier. ..maybe we should send him a copy.

As much as I liked New Frontier itself what I almost liked more was the afterword in the vol.2 tpb by Cooke himself. He really broke it down into what it's all about.

As for Infinite Crisis I'd pretty much say until given truly sufficent reason to believe otherwise this will just be another gruesome parade like they've been doing and they'll just say we're wrong or we're scared or we just want the Silver Age back. I think that in a way is the most annoying part of all. You can't even object to what DC is doing without it being accused of wanting it to be the 50's and 60's again. Which is prolly why so many missed the point of New Frontier because Cooke made it a period peice and they can't see past the trappings.
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ShinDangaioh
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« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2005, 05:52:07 PM »

Quote from: "DakotaSmith"
Quote from: "ShinDangaioh"
I would like to recommend Flare for your child to read, but I can't.  Flare is the mortal reincarnation of a Greek diety.  Would you allow your children to read all of Greek myth(Heracles sleeping with his male friend or Zeus and his many lovers) or look at all of Greek art(celebration of the human body)?  Other than a lot of the Greek art element, it would be allowable for your child to read it.


My objection to it would be largely based on context.  I'd have to read it and get the context before I knew for sure.  Now that it's been brought to my attention, I'll see if my local store (Acme Comics -- two-time winner and current holder of the Eisner Award for Best Retailer) has a copy.

However, the main problem isn't necessarily my objection, it's my childrens'.  They're 10 and 12, and at those ages, sex of any kind (hetero or homo) is just repulsive.  They don't even sit still well for kissing.  The kissing scene between Diana and Bruce in Starcrossed elicited the only outraged "Ewwwwww!!" from them of the entire movie.

Then try Witchgirls Inc.  It's more mystic detectives than superheroes.    If your comic store can't get them.  www.heroicpub.com does have an online ordering service and you can order back issues.  The best bet would be the comic they offered for Free Comic Book Day to give you an example of what the comics are like.

Giant, League of Champions, Flare, Witchgirls Inc., Black Enchantress, Alter Ego.  I've enjoyed most of the stories that Heroic Publishing puts out..


This is something that I almost forgot.  The stories are what DC and Marvel should be.  I do my best to bring them to other people's attention, to try and keep them around and force DC and Marvel to take a good long look at what Heroic is doing right and change their behavior.  I might not suceed, but I try.
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Klar Ken T5477
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« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2005, 06:28:16 PM »

One of my fave lines in New Frontier is when the World's Finest team meets up and Superman says, "New look for you?" :wink:
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Gangbuster
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« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2005, 06:47:08 PM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
It's odd that the only woman who was killed got the most graphic death.
Oh, and they killed Uncle Sam.

To me this website below sums up everything that the Modern "Superhero" comics stand for: http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/

If someone wanted me to show them why I don't read comics anymore, I would just post that link.


I don't mind cheesecake, but not cheescake drenched in blood and bile.
That's just gross.


That site, while it cracks me up, is sad, because it's true.

I can't stand to read new comics anymore, because they're violent and lack imagination. Now, life might be violent and lack imagination, but the comics that I like are an escape...imaginative and fantastic.

Recent comics I've enjoyed...Banana Sunday, Zorro, Day of Vengeance. Only one of those is published by DC, and I enjoyed it only because I never get to see the Wizard Shazam or Detective Chimp in comics anymore. Maybe this is why Manga outsells comics. Now, if they'd just release a Detective Chimp manga...
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Kuuga
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« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2005, 07:44:08 PM »

Quote
Maybe this is why Manga outsells comics. Now, if they'd just release a Detective Chimp manga...


That's just the tip of the iceberg for why manga outsells. part of it is vision. Heck even their work for hire stuff is usually the product of a single creator (with some assitance of course) working on one series and one story that doesn't interact with any others at a time.

Basically there is a variety of genres and tones which is always a plus. The age range for the stories that it does is wide as can be and in addition there is consideration given to a general audience of young and old alike. At the same time theres also stuff that is meant to zero in on a specific demographics. You get alot of bang for your buck per volume. A collected manga volume might be about 20 bucks but look how much comics you get for your 20 bucks.

The stories and series have beginings, middles, and endings. A complete experience. Even when dealing with long running franchises like for example Gundam, because each new incarnation has it's own identity and run which completes. Eventually giving way to a new take that is sometimes radical, somtimes traditional, sometimes both. Yet for the most part the same themes remain for each generation to experience for themselves.

So even if you don't like a version of that franchise that is currently running it will end in a short amount of time and things will move on. In addition, nobody has to feel shafted because whatever version they did like they are left with at least somekind of real closure for. Which makes things much easier for the reader to take or leave whatever comes after that.

It also helps to that the Japanese are less prone to just throwing whatever is old away. Having a sense of history is very important.

Also while you certainally have creators who like to spin things in different ways or analyze and deconstruct genres, you have just as many who are playing along with their genre just fine and just trying to do something entertaining with it. Rather than blaming the genres tropes or the characters or the audience for bad sales.

You also get something that the best superhero comics are really good at doing which is stories where you are getting a mixed bag rather than sort of stewing in one tone although there are certainally manga one can go to for just emersing themselves in a mood or just seeing something totally bizzare. I mean in the same story you have about a giant robot you might have comedy, maybe even a little tragedy but you also have drama and romance and tales about the virtues of freindship. Of course this can sometimes backfire to where the tone is so all over the place you can't get a grip on the series identity.

At the end of the day manga succeeds because it's a variety of genres for a variety of audeinces doing what they are each best at instead of one genre (superheroes) trying to do be everything for one audience and losing what IT is best at in the process.
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« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2005, 09:05:18 PM »

Quote
It's odd that the only woman who was killed got the most graphic death.



And she was impaled, naturally.  There's probably something witty to say here about Freudian symbolism and the frustrated desires of comic geeks turned comics pros (which really just makes them professional geeks), but why bother, you've probably heard it already.  At least she wasn't stuffed into a Frigidaire afterwards.

Thanks to everyone for posting here, by the way.  I'm counting on detailed synopses of this series so I can keep saving my money for monthly "Showcase Presents" TPBs!
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