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Author Topic: Thor knows KARATE?  (Read 10055 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2005, 07:42:22 AM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Just the same, the previous point stands.  The genre has the convention of everyone getting to do themselves honour by scoring at least one hit in an encounter, no matter how impossible that would be in the real world.  Maggin chose to come up with a possible explanation.  Marvel fails to even try on this.


Marvel hasn't addressed the problem because the necessity doesn't exist to address it. To illustrate my point, let's look at the founding JLA roster that fought Starro the Conqueror:

Superman
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern
Martian Manhunter
The Flash
Batman
Aquaman
"Snapper" Carr

Notice that of the characters listed here, Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter and the Flash - four out of seven, the majority by a hair if you count Snapper as a mascot instead of a true member - have superspeed. Now, superspeed is a much more common in the DC Universe than in Marvel: for example, Captain Comet, Ultra the Multi-Alien, the Marvel Family, Ultra Boy, Mon-El and others have superspeed to chow from at their powers buffet table.

Even Thor, the mightiest of all Marvel heroes (except for - POSSIBLY - Captain Universe, Hyperion, Gladiator, Circe, and Captain Ultra, at least if someone would ever write him appropriately) lacks superspeed. It is interesting to note that the Superman equivalent of the Marvel universe, Hyperion, lacks superspeed - Patsy Walker got a few licks in on him in AVENGERS #147 (1975) just with her extraordinary athletic ability. And hey, if your Superman isn't packing superspeed, who can be, right?  Cheesy

Though I'm hardly a fan of Mark Waid's "contributions" to the Flash (this could be a whole other post [administrator's note: which it now is], but sufficed to say, Mark Waid is to the Flash what John Byrne is to Superman) it is interesting to mention how he pointed out that at DC, there is just about a CIVILIZATION of "pure" speedsters: Max Mercury, Jessie Quick, Johnny Quick, XS, Impala, the various Flashes over the years, and so on.

Marvel heroes tend to be 1) super-coordinated athletes with post-human prowess, 2) exclusively focused on superstrength and toughness. Attacking Marvel for battle implausibility and innappropriate use of power is throwing stones from a glass house. If anything, Marvel's battles are MORE realistic; Thor and Hulk may demolish warehouse districts with no loss of human life, but at least they don't have to wonder why the battle isn't over in the time it takes an electron to round a cesium atom, because the supertypes can outrun photons.

To be fair, Marvel has some speedsters too. Like Quicksilver, the various Whizzers, and...ummm...uhhhh...ehhh...I mentioned Quicksilver, right? Dang.  :wink:
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
Captain Kal
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 04:59:31 PM »

You missed Northstar, Aurora, Makkarri, Mercury, Runner, and Hermod.

IIRC, an X-foe, Supersaber can run at mach one.

Thor has been 'granted' super-speed by the PTB at Marvel, though his is still nowhere near that of even Byrned Superman's.  Simonson has written a Thor capable of literally lightning-fast movement.

In nearly all the above cases, it's not uncommon for common human opponents to score hits on superfast guys.
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Captain Kal

"When you lose, don't lose the lesson."
-- The Dalai Lama
JulianPerez
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2005, 06:15:43 PM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
You missed Northstar, Aurora, Makkarri, Mercury, Runner, and Hermod.


And we both forgot the most obvious one - the Monica Rambeau Captain Marvel, moving at lightspeed as a beam of light, she potentially operates at a level that - possibly - may make stories impossible, much like the DC Speedsters.

Refresh my memory: Who is "Runner," again?

Though it feels strange to say Makkari's a part of the Marvel Universe - Kirby's ETERNALS felt, in many ways, like its own continuum with its own rules. And it is rather disappointing to put Gilgamesh in with the Avengers, where he's just another strong guy amongst strong guys instead of being THE FORGOTTEN ONE!
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2005, 06:20:50 PM »

Runner is one of the Elders of the MU like Champion or the Gardner.
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Captain Kal

"When you lose, don't lose the lesson."
-- The Dalai Lama
JulianPerez
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2005, 06:26:14 PM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Runner is one of the Elders of the MU like Champion or the Gardner.


OHHHH, the gold guy with the Infinity Gem of Space? Yeah, I know who that is.
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2005, 07:00:35 PM »

I agree completely re: wrongness of mainstream MU'g the Eternals into the MU proper.  If you read Kirby's original run, it's very clear he intended it to be our real world and the MU to be a fictional world for his Eternals.  Notice how the Eternals' 'Hulk' was a cosmic-energy powered robot and how the fanboys of that Earth were jazzed that their comics heroes were coming to life because of that 'Hulk'.

Along the same lines, Kirby's stated the Thor and the Asgardians were his first go at pantheon building, the New Gods were his next step of development, then the Eternals truly captured his final thoughts on the pantheon concepts.  IMHO, the Eternals truly were his masterpiece of myth-building amongst all his god books.
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Captain Kal

"When you lose, don't lose the lesson."
-- The Dalai Lama
JulianPerez
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2005, 08:47:28 PM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
I agree completely re: wrongness of mainstream MU'g the Eternals into the MU proper.  If you read Kirby's original run, it's very clear he intended it to be our real world and the MU to be a fictional world for his Eternals.  Notice how the Eternals' 'Hulk' was a cosmic-energy powered robot and how the fanboys of that Earth were jazzed that their comics heroes were coming to life because of that 'Hulk'.

Along the same lines, Kirby's stated the Thor and the Asgardians were his first go at pantheon building, the New Gods were his next step of development, then the Eternals truly captured his final thoughts on the pantheon concepts.  IMHO, the Eternals truly were his masterpiece of myth-building amongst all his god books.


ETERNALS was quite an achievement, and it is unfortunate that they decided to incorporate it into the Marvel Universe, where the characters became essentially just an alien race pretending to be the gods of myth instead of the real deal.

(I also wish Marvel would bring ETERNALS out in trade paperback form in some way!  Cheesy )

Earlier in this thread I said that I felt that of Kirby's great achievements, the one that was the most impressive to me at least was MIGHTY THOR, because THOR had everything the other comics had, but also had a sense of humor and the human characters had vivacious personalities, instead of...well..."And me, young but cool Harvey Lockman!" Notice for instance, the situation of Thor being asked to leave a street because of a building guard:

GUARD: "Hey, break it up, muscles! Where's your permit for a street demonstration?"
THOR: "Permit? I have no permit! I am THOR!"

Stan Lee's dialogue was grandiose and Shakespearean but at the same time naturalistic, whereas Kirby wrote things like in NEW GODS #2: "What is WRONG, friends? Why do you COWER from me, as if from some nameless FEAR?"

At the same time, as a raw act of worldbuilding, the one I think was most impressive was Fourth World, because it was entirely science fiction as opposed to folkloric in origin. There wasn't a juxtaposition of Japanese Samurai with rocketships.

I *love* ETERNALS, but it had Aztec gods still wearing Aztec clothing and Kingo Sunen acting in Samurai movies - it essentially felt like a divine version of Epcot, where French people stand around the Eiffel Tower and wear beanies and ascots. At least THOR picked a single historical period and stuck with it.
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
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« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2005, 04:30:55 PM »

I can't believe we missed this one.

Spider-Man has incredible speed, agility, reflexes, and that darned spidersense stacked on top of it all.  He's been able to outmaneuver Masterson-Thor and Titania with neither able to lay a finger on him.

But for some strange, esoteric reason, human normals like Kingpin, Kraven, and the Vulture can hit him at will.

Go figure.

(Yeah, I mentioned Masterson-Thor just to be back on topic and that Thor had the same abilities minus the millenia of experience so he'd be just as fast at the real Thor.)
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Captain Kal

"When you lose, don't lose the lesson."
-- The Dalai Lama
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