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Author Topic: Ferro Lad was copied to Colossus at Marvel?  (Read 7705 times)
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Captain Kal
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« on: November 03, 2005, 02:35:18 PM »

I remember reading somewhere that the similarities between Ferro Lad and Colossus were not accidental.  I heard one of the creators involved in Colossus wanted to do something with Ferro Lad at DC, but DC resolutely refused his proposal, so he created the analogue of Colossus at Marvel.

Can anyone confirm this?

If so, what's the actual story and possible references to back this up?
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Captain Kal

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DoctorZero
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2005, 01:12:40 PM »

Well, wasn't Colossus created by Dave Cockrum, who worked on the Legion prior to X-Men?  I believe I read that a number of the New X-Men were created by Dave for Legion but never got used.  In fact, I remember a quote from Dave in which he said Nightcrawler might have been used in Legion if Murry Boltinoff hadn't been so conservative. So I can see how maybe Dave wanted to revive Ferro Lad (possible introduce his twin brother) but Boltinoff didn't want to do this.  Obviously Cockrum must have felt frustrated during his Legion tenure, especially once the team expanded to full starring role in Superboy's book.  
Does anyone else have any information about this?
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2005, 08:22:29 PM »

Dave Cockrum, the artist, originally proposed a team of heroes set in the 30th Century future of the Legion, NOT as Legionnaires themselves but a sort of spin-off set in the same world. Several of the members in this proposal, years down the road became members of Legion Academy; for example, the Daxamite Power Boy was mentioned in this proposal. Nightcrawler was originally proposed for the Legion, but he was turned down for being "too weird looking."  Cheesy So, Cockrum put Nightcrawler in his 30th Century team proposal.

The Cockrum attachment to Nightcrawler is a well-documented fact; Cockrum wanted Nightcrawler to be the "star" of X-Men, always proposing Nightcrawler centered stories, and further, wanted Wolverine dismissed in favor of his pet character. John Byrne, however, in another sign that he is either the devil or that the devil at least works through him - refused to allow Wolverine to leave.

Colossus being a Legion creation at some point does not surprise me in the least. Storm, for example, was supposed to have been a part of this rejected series; her costume on a princess of a race of cat people called "the Black Cat." And it is true that in the early X-Men issues Storm's features have a distinct feline cast.
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2005, 12:44:21 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I very well could be here) but weren't Cockrum and Byrne artists on X-Men at different times?  I don't think Byrne was a writer back then so he couldn't have forced any Wolverine storylines upon Cockrum.  I do recall that Byrne began his 'input' to stories by defying the actual writer intent on a book to make Wolverine gut someone instead of just knocking him out.

My opinion of Cockrum just went up several notches if what you said about his promoting Nightcrawler is true.  Kurt Wagner had every reason to hate the world that shunned him for his physical form.  Yet, he was the most Christian, most loving, most kind-hearted of all the X-Men.

It is a sad statement about comics that the psycho, murdering, berserker Wolverine was promoted more and is more popular.  If Byrne is indeed the motivating force behind this travesty, my already rock-bottom opinion of Byrne has managed to descend several more levels.

Getting back to the topic, I think we all have heard similar things and it seems pretty true that Cockrum just transplanted his Ferro Lad concepts to Colossus at Marvel.

BTW, besides Colossus and Nightcrawler, what other characters in the X-books were originally pitched for DC's LSH?
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Captain Kal

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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2005, 02:26:49 AM »

I wondered how it would had played out if those characters would have become legionnaires as they were suppose to be? Would had the X-Men be as big as they are now? Did DC drop the ball big time?
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2005, 05:11:36 PM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
BTW, besides Colossus and Nightcrawler, what other characters in the X-books were originally pitched for DC's LSH?


Storm (and her famous costume) were originally supposed to have been a "cat person" heroine called the "Black Cat" in Dave Cockrum's proposal; does that count?

The Shi'ar Imperial Guard are wearing costumes that Dave Cockrum had originally designed for the Legion of Super-Heroes, but at the last moment, had been denied the right to change the costumes by the Powers That Be. While Titan, Gladiator, Electron, Fang, Manta and the rest were not the most original characters in the world, they were certainly very well dressed. Dave Cockrum should just go ahead and design every superhero costume ever from now on; he knew what they were supposed to look like!

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
It is a sad statement about comics that the psycho, murdering, berserker Wolverine was promoted more and is more popular. If Byrne is indeed the motivating force behind this travesty, my already rock-bottom opinion of Byrne has managed to descend several more levels.


I hear you. I believe our buddy Johnny has a smug "yeah, that was my idea" statement on his own board somewhere, taking credit for Wolverine.

Why IS it Wolverine is such hot stuff, anyway? Compare him to someone like Hawkeye, for instance, who is indeed a jerk that gives guff to Captain America for being a square, and whose dominant personality traits are his loud mouth and macho bravura and a willingness to pick fights. But Hawkeye, despite his jerkiness and immaturity, was fundamentally a good guy: nobody talks louder or gives more guff to Captain America than Hawkeye, but the minute some bad guy raises a hand against the Star Spangled One, Hawkeye's the FIRST one to nock an arrow. Wolverine on the other hand...he's apparently quite sincere when he threatens to gut Cyclops with his claws.

I always personally preferred Nightcrawler as a zany, agile swashbuckler with a zest for life than as a spiritually inclined person, but that's just me. So many X-Men have mutually contradictory characterizations that by this point you can pick and choose the ones you like the best as a buffet.

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
I wondered how it would had played out if those characters would have become legionnaires as they were suppose to be? Would had the X-Men be as big as they are now? Did DC drop the ball big time?


X-Men wouldn't be the X-Men without Storm, that's for sure. Cheesy

I think the X-Men would be popular no matter who composed the membership, because what attracted people to the comic were two things: 1) the art by Mr. John Byrne and inking by Cockrum, both at the top of their game, 2) the concept, which combined teen angst and alienation with science fiction. It would have worked no matter who was in the team, but the fact that most of the X-Men were good looking and attractive adults in their twenties probably didn't kill sales, exactly.

I'd hate to imagine what would happen if these X-types had been Legionnaires, because then they would just be the "alien looking" members, and nobody ever got much use out of the alien members, despite the fact that Quislet was possibly the weirdest and most interesting Legionnaire that Levitz created. Nightcrawler and the Black Cat would have almost assuredly not been brought back for the various reboots, leaving them high and dry in the 1980s, assuming Keith Giffen didn't kill them off first.
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2005, 12:46:56 AM »

I agree with Julian--the reboots haven't been favorable to the newer Legionnaires who joined.  With the exception of Wildfire, what newer Legionnaire has survived a reboot?  And Wildfire is now absent from the latest reboot.  
Anyone have the URL for Byrne's message board?  I would like to see it, and see how he deals with the now fact that his Doom Patrol and Action Comics Superman strip have been cancelled or taken from him.
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Kid Legion
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2006, 02:36:41 AM »

I know that this is an old thread, but for people who stumble upon it now, a few facts:

The "Black Cat" character was never intended for Legion. Cockrum had a group of characters called the Outsiders (not to be confused which any other group with the same name - there's no connection) which he wanted to introduce in the Legion. Nightcrawler was a member, and so was a character called Typhoon, a man who could control the weather. While putting together the X-Men later on, Roy Thomas suggested that they take the weather powers from Typhoon and give them to the Black Cat (who was not in the Outsiders), and Storm was born.

Cockrum also designed a group of villains to be introduced in the Legion, and one of the members was called Wolverine. He looked very similar to Fang from the Imperial Guard, though. The only member from that group that ever saw print was Tyr, the red-skinned guy with the mohawk and gun hand. Later on, Roy Thomas saw the picture (although he can't remember seeing the picture), and later still, he told Len Wein to create a Canadian super-hero called Wolverine. Whether that picture put the name "Wolverine" in Roy's mind is arguable, but Cockrum did resent the use of the name when he had it first, and it took him a while to warm to Wolverine. In a bit of poetic justice, the first artist to draw Wolverine without his costume on was Dave Cockrum, so he got to design Wolverine "from the neck up," as he puts it. In other words, the hair, the sideburns, the face - that's all Cockrum.

The Shi'ar Imperial Guard characters were created after Cockrum left the Legion as an in-joke in the pages of the X-Men. They were not costumes or characters that he took with him to Marvel, he created them while he was at Marvel. The only similarity to previous designs was Fang, who looked a lot like the villain Wolverine character which never saw print.

And to answer the question posed in the title of this thread, no. Cockrum has answered that one himself:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/05/18/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-51/

(in case the link doesn't work at some future point, it leads to this:

In The Legion Companion (TwoMorrows 2003, Page 73), Cockrum gave an interview, and the question was raised,

Quote
   Q. True or False: your design of Colossus was originally intended to be used as Ferro ladís brother.

    Dave Cockrum: False.


Like the man over there says, that settles that.)

Links to Cockrum pictures: Outsiders;Villain Wolverine (and friends)

Fun fact: another name originally considered by Roy Thomas for the Canadian super-hero in question? The Badger.
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