IC#2 - those last pages are something -lots of spoilers here

[Captain Kal]

I don't know whether to blame Johns, Jimenez, or both, but the flashback sequences as Kara regained her E-2 memories included E-1 Superman's Arctic fortress complete with giant golden key and golden door.  E-2 Superman's Secret Citadel resembled more a cathedral from the front and had his S-shield above the entrance.

I had such high hopes for this series and I'm finding Johns/Jimenez/Berganza/whoever is being really slipshod on the research here.

Say what you want about Wolfman's Crisis, boners like what I've griped about in IC didn't occur there.  I think the only one I can come up with was Stewart wearing his power ring on the wrong finger in COIE #1, and that's not a biggie.

Oh, yes, DoctorZero, I agree completely that the Post Crisis Mr. Atom -- along with the rest of the DCU -- had been seriously downgraded in power-levels compared with the Pre Crisis version.  My unstated point was that the Pre Crisis level E-2 Superman operates at a much, much higher level than the characters of the Post Crisis DCU.  On this score, Johns has successfully captured those differences.

[Captain Kal]

We have one ray of hope that E-2 Superman is not the villain.

We still don't have an explanation how the Pre Crisis E-1 Luthor managed to coexist with the Byrned Luthor.  That predates the gang breaking out of the other realm heaven/prison.  Given that and the evil machinations behind the Rann/Thanagar war reworking the cosmos itself, which also predate the escape, it looks like a mystery player is pulling the strings.

Who knows?  Maybe our buddy the Anti-Monitor somehow recovered and is the big baddie yet again.

[Maximara]

I have the bad feeling that part of Infinite Crisis is to take out the last intact Bronze Age heroine: Amethyst: Princess of Gemworld.  She violates everything DC stands for.  She is a powerful woman who has retained her powers and does have a somewhat happy ending with her daughter living on Earth.  She's more powerful than Superman.  Women in DC should be depowered, raped, killed, have no happiness, and no family.  No hero should be more powerful than Superman.  No heroine should be more powerful than Wonder Woman.

You must have missed the Amethyst special issue that came right after Crisis. In that she is revealed not to even be human and her entire history has been rewritten to where she is nothing more 'then the imagenary friend of a lonely girl'. She then confronts Flaw takes him out turning her right hand into crystal in the process. Then she absorbs Chaos and the issue enf with a close up on her picture the gemstone around her neck melting like ice implying that the last remnents of her existance as a human being are being retroactively wiped out.

[Defender]

Well, after skimming the last two issues I have to say I know where I stand on this whole debacle.

 *sits in the bleachers wearing an Earth-2 Superman t-shirt and waving GO TEAM KAL-L flag*

 

 No more angst! Go team E2!

 -Def.

[Captain Kal]

Sadly, I think we have yet more evidence that IC is going to keep DC in the gory, grim'n'gritty Dark Ages.

I just read Johns' latest GL book with the Shark and Black Hand.  It was a gorefest.  That's not the light-hearted, fun Hal tales I remember.  Johns seems to be trying to gross us out and claim it's 'realism'.

Johns is also writing IC and is indulging in a similar gorefest there.

I'm losing hope.

[Ar-Thur8691]

Looking at all of the posts, "today's Superman is bogus, the silver age Superman ruled", reminds me of hearing people go on and on about how the 40's and 50's were a golden age where everyone got along fine, everyone had a job and America was the bestest ever.

I think what is happening is that we are getting older and long for our youth which happens in every generation. In our case we look at the books that were published when we were kids and go "Ah, if only comics were like this again! I don't understand the world today."

When people complain about "life today" aand how things were so much better when they were younger, I ask them this question, "Did you really appreciate what you had then or did you not think about it until it was gone?"

Coming back to comics, lest we forget, superheroes were abandoned in the early 50's because a "respectedd" "Dr." thought they contributed to juvenile delinquency. In particular the old EC horror mags, which were extremely well written and would be considered "PG" rated at best by modern audiences.

Having said all of this, I think DC and Marvel both have gotten darker, in an effort to connect with today's audience. I think they are suffering from a combination of Marvel's initial success of "realism" and fans reaction to the X-Men "mutant angst".

Let's face it, some of the best stories from Marvel over the last 20 years have been from this area.

Kids related to these characters that were struggling to be accepted despite being different. Kids have always felt this way. The problem now is that they are being portrayed as being emotionally disturbed and dangerous. On the flip-side, they are portrayed as needing to be protected from all "negative" input but Barney.

As far as Superman goes, in 20 years or so, when comics change again (they always do) or go away (an equal possiblility) today's group of readers will probably lament its passing.

OK, its late and I'm tired. I didn't mean for this post to turn into a rant. All I am saying is let today's group have their idea of "fun" and we will always have our old movies and TV shows to watch "TVLand or AMC anyone?) and reprints of classic comics restored in book bound formats.

[MatterEaterLad]

There are pretty fundemental reasons why people here tend to prefer the pre-Crisis Superman, it runs quite a bit deeper than that, though of course, personal preference is pretty big...

[Anonymous]

I don't know whether to blame Johns, Jimenez, or both, but the flashback sequences as Kara regained her E-2 memories included E-1 Superman's Arctic fortress complete with giant golden key and golden door.  E-2 Superman's Secret Citadel resembled more a cathedral from the front and had his S-shield above the entrance.

I had such high hopes for this series and I'm finding Johns/Jimenez/Berganza/whoever is being really slipshod on the research here.

Say what you want about Wolfman's Crisis, boners like what I've griped about in IC didn't occur there.  I think the only one I can come up with was Stewart wearing his power ring on the wrong finger in COIE #1, and that's not a biggie.

Oh, yes, DoctorZero, I agree completely that the Post Crisis Mr. Atom -- along with the rest of the DCU -- had been seriously downgraded in power-levels compared with the Pre Crisis version.  My unstated point was that the Pre Crisis level E-2 Superman operates at a much, much higher level than the characters of the Post Crisis DCU.  On this score, Johns has successfully captured those differences.

the fortress was the silverasge supermans...
see coie for a visual reference....
she remeber's going there to mourn with kal-el not kal-l.. it's an intentional mistake so people pay attention to it..
im pretty sure one of the luthors found a crisis remenant of the key and fortress in an issue of superman recently.