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Author Topic: Thoughts on Crisis, Infinite Crisis, & major retcons.  (Read 6395 times)
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llozymandias
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« on: November 10, 2005, 02:44:27 AM »

Infinite Crisis seems ok so far.  It would be nice if part of the aftermath would be the return of the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse.  However i know that won't happen.  DC's attitude seems to still be the pre-crisis=garbage.  20 years later i still say that Crisis was a mistake.  The story itself was great, but the aftermath really reeks.  There was no need to eliminate the multiverse in order to have the post-crisis DCU.  The "clean" reboot Marv Wolfman wanted would have worked (& made more sense) if done as a new earth/universe of the DC Multiverse.  Infinite Crisis seems to be more about further darkenning the DCU.  In order to make it more "realistic".  A real world (like ours) includes everything from the most "bright & optimistic" to the most "grim & gritty".  As well as everything inbetween.  



       To me every major reboot/retcon/revamp DC did were for the most part shifts of focus between universes or even multiverses.  Hence the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse still exists.  The last stories set there were in the late 70s to early 80s.  Crisis never happened.  If/when DC kills off Kal-L just keep in mind that he is only a "counterpart" of sorts of the Kal-L from the pre-crisis Earth-2.
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2005, 01:02:49 PM »

i'm prettyy sure he's the real deal

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/INCRLeeCv3.jpg
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llozymandias
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2005, 10:35:38 PM »

My main point was that over the years there have been several DC Multiverses.  Here are the ones i am certain (as certain as one can be about fiction :lol: ) of:


      1.)  The Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse: the Crisis never happened here.  Kara Zor-El/Supergirl/Linda Lee Danvers is still alive.  As is Barry Allen/Flash.  Freedom Fighters are native to Earth-X.  The Quality characters on Earth-2 are counterparts to the ones on Earth-X.  Brainiac is still a "green-skinned" super-computer in humanoid form.  Lex might have his warsuit, but Lexor still lives.  This multiverse was last seen in our DC titles about the late 70s or early 80s.


       2.)  The Crossover Multiverse:  The Pre-Crisis DC/Marvel crossovers take place here.  DC's Earth-1 & Marvel's Marvel-Earth are the same earth/universe.


       3.)  The Crisis DC Multiverse:  Crisis happened here.  This multiverse is still mostly intact, minus the 1,000-3,000 universes destroyed by the Anti-Monitor.  freedom Fighters & other Quality characters originate on Earth-2 & migrate to Earth-X.  The battle at the "dawn of time" somehow causes the creation of around 3 new multiverses.  When the battle was over the survivors went home.  This multiverse was first seen in our DC titles by the early 80s.  It was last seen in Crisis #10.


        4.)  The Post-Crisis DC Multiverse:  First seen in Crisis #11.  The Earth-DC shown is kind of an amalgam of Crisis Earths 1, 2, 4, S, & X.  Certain characters (whose Crisis multiverse counterparts went to the "dawn of time") were given their counterparts' memories in order to help them fight the Anti-Monitor.  The other characters at the "dawn of time" were duplicated. The duplicates were sent to the Post-Crisis DC Multiverse to help fight the Anti-Monitor.  This most likely happened in several of the Post-Crisis Multiverses.  This multiverse was last seen just before the "man of steel" mini-series started.


         5.)   The Reboot DC Multiverse:  First seen in issue #1 of "man of steel" mini-series.  Last seen circa "invasion".


          6.)   The Hawkworld DC Multiverse:  First seen in the Hawkworld mini-series.  Last seen in zero hour.


          7.)   The Current DC Multiverse: first seen in zero hour.



          As well as "Rao only knows" many many others.
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John Martin, citizen of the omniverse.
Maximara
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2005, 03:36:24 PM »

Here is a list of the post-Crisis earths based on information from spark...@mindspring.com (Steve Parker) and the Infinate Atlas:

Earth-Sigma: The very short lived merged earth that existed Crisis #11 & 12, the few tie up loose end issues after Crisis, and the Legion of SuperHeroes until about 1989. If Superman or the LSH remembers Kara-El dying fighting the Anti-Monitor, Lady Quark comes from another reality rather than another planet, or people who are stated as dying during Crisis are alive at the end of issue #12 or issues immedately after then you are dealing with Earth-Sigma.

Earth-AC (Earth After-Crisis): Are Superman and a Kryptonian artifact called the Eradicator are the last survivors of Krypton which was a bleak sterile place? Is the Flash Wally West and taps into something called the Speed Force and there are dozens of other speedsters (including the original Flash with the Mercury-like bowl on his head) running around? Is Guy Gardner is running around with Sinestro's ring and Hal had a fake Green Lantern ring he was tricked into taking from some guy named Lord Malvolio (Action #632-#635) which may or may have not called him to go nuts and kill the GLC? Does the Justice Society originally never have a Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman as members? Is anytime Hawkman or the Legion of Superheroes is mentioned, people get headaches? Welcome to Earth-AC

Earth-ZH (Earth Zero Hour): The stillborn earth related on the back of Zero
Hour #0. Is there supposed to be only one timeline but Armageddon 2001 (which required alternate timeline to work) and the Supergirl of the Time Trapper's artificial alternate timeline still exist/happened? Is the current Hawkman a Native American? Does the JSA now have Wonder Woman's time traveling mother as a member? Do many time travel stories now make no sense what so ever? Welcome to Earth-ZH.

Earth-Hypertime (1999-current): Is Kingdom Come and every other Elsewords title part of the DU multiverse? Do the Superman titles have absolutely no continuity with each other or the rest of the DCU? Does Superman have both Matrix and a cousin called Kara-Zor-El who both answer to the name Supergirl? Does tying to make sense of about any character's history give you headaches? Welcome to the current mess known as Earth-Hypertime.
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Kal-L
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2005, 03:48:48 PM »

No one has mentionned the "hyper time" concept, that admits the existence of several uni/multiverses (Cf "The Kingdom"). According the "Hypertime" theory, there are continuums where the Crisis never happened. For more info on Hypertime theory, see this site: http://www.geocities.com/hypertime2000/features/history.html
Though I hear DC has removed the Hypertime concept from its publications.

Anyway, llozymandias, I agree with 99% of what you say on Crisis.
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llozymandias
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2005, 02:38:19 AM »

Just curious, what is the 1% (re: crisis) where we disagree?  Of course it could always turn out that we actually agree there too.  One never knows.  Anyway on to hypertime.  I generally dislike DC's hypertime concept.  It has too many stupid rules against interdimensional travel.
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John Martin, citizen of the omniverse.
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2005, 01:13:29 PM »

So it proves, once again, we could have done very much better without Crisis...
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llozymandias
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2005, 07:25:04 PM »

How about the excuse/rationale DC gave for eliminating their multiverse.  Parallel universes (with multiple counterparts of characters) is too confusing for new/casual readers.  A good Whos Who was all that was really needed here.  Plus DC's post-crisis continuity is far more confusing than their pre-crisis continuity ever was.  Anyone who can't understand DC's Pre-Crisis Multiverse should never study their own family tree.  Genealogy & other forms of real world history are far more complex & potentially confusing than any fictional continuity/history.
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