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Author Topic: Proof of Cary Bates's Genius: ACTION #509  (Read 21107 times)
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2005, 11:28:42 PM »

It's the same reason Superman ducks when they throw a gun at him Wink

Anyway, I think that once fans get too anal about little details like logic, reason and facts to get in the way of a good story then they need to move on and read history books, it's just comic book, it's suppose to be fun! Gosh darn it! Heck, the more mind warping a comic is the happier I get reading it Smiley

I guess comics are not allowed to be fun anymore Sad
It's the Iron Age and all or is it called the Dark Ages now?
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2005, 12:59:14 AM »

There's a lot of stuff from the 70s (yes, Maggin and Bates, gasp!!!!!!!) that I found overly serious, too all encompassing, and taking the wonder and the mystery out of Superman...

But, feelings about stories are opinions...which says a lot about "canon"... :wink:
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llozymandias
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2005, 01:01:22 AM »

Julian that astronomer didn't destroy krypton,  he only believed he did.  He had invented a super-telescope that enabled him to discover & observe krypton.  When he learned of krypton's impending demise, he invented a device that neutralized nuclear reactions.  He used his device in an attempt to save krypton.  This story & the story of the original Black Zero seem to complement each other.  In the Black Zero story krypton's internal pressures were dying down.  Black Zero did something that counteracted the astronomer's device.  Thus if not for Black Zero that astronomer would have succeeded in saving krypton.  If the original Black Zero is not canon then the astronomer's device was not powerfull enough.
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2005, 05:18:45 AM »

Quote from: "LLozymandias"
Julian that astronomer didn't destroy krypton, he only believed he did. He had invented a super-telescope that enabled him to discover & observe krypton. When he learned of krypton's impending demise, he invented a device that neutralized nuclear reactions. He used his device in an attempt to save krypton. This story & the story of the original Black Zero seem to complement each other. In the Black Zero story krypton's internal pressures were dying down. Black Zero did something that counteracted the astronomer's device. Thus if not for Black Zero that astronomer would have succeeded in saving krypton. If the original Black Zero is not canon then the astronomer's device was not powerfull enough.


Ah. thanks for the correction, LLozy. I have only vague, vague memories of that story. I should have known it would end with a Weisenger style fakeout: "Ha ha, Lois, you see, I didn't really turn into the 'Super-Swinger from Krypton.' I just temporarily switched brains with Krypto..."

My point though, is that various ideas about how Krypton was destroyed were discarded and created; a case of the phenomenon that Captain Kal is talking about: explanations being discarded and never talked about again.

Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
As a general rule of thumb, I figure anyone who consistently deflects bullets, not allowing them to hit them, isn't bulletproof, unless they give some sort of alternate explanation.


Although this brings up an interesting point: is Orion bulletproof? I always assumed he was. However, this may not be true, now that I think about it; he always seemed to duck underneath the blasts and bolts that the parademons fired at him. He could take blows from a beast like Kalibak, but Thor and Wonder Man have brawled, and Wonder Man's fist hit as hard as Thor's hammer, which could break concrete and building walls.

How about Wonder Woman, at least after Perez? Bulletproof or not? I hope she isn't; as much respect as I have for Perez as an artist, the decision to have Wonder Woman fly under her own power was, I think, a mistake, because it compromised her uniqueness by giving her the Superman-clone "power suite." Gliding is COOL - and I can't think of many other characters that have it. And it let her use that AMAZING robot plane. If someone had the Hulk fly instead of just leaping great distances, I would say that too, was a mistake. Similarly, if Wonder Woman was naturally bulletproof, it would be unfortunate, because it makes superfluous her most famous feat: the bullet and beam-blocking bracelets.

Is the Martian Manhunter invulnerable? It MAY be the case that if there are times he has demonstrated invulnerability, but it may be a manifestation of his ability to alter his density: he becomes super-dense, not unlike the Vision.
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2005, 06:20:44 AM »

re: superman being bulletproof..

it's answered in Superman Archives Vol. 1

In the early stories, it says his skin was impenetrable by anything less than an exploding shell, but by the end of the collection, he's been upgraded to having impenetrable skin.
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Kurt Busiek
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2005, 06:43:10 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Although this brings up an interesting point: is Orion bulletproof?


No immediate idea.

Quote
How about Wonder Woman, at least after Perez? Bulletproof or not?


I say not.  If she is, the bracelets are like Luke Cage wearing a bulletproof vest; what's the point?

Quote
Is the Martian Manhunter invulnerable?


I always figured J'onn has Superman's powers plus a few -- though maybe not quite to the same extent -- so he'd be bulletproof.

kdb
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TELLE
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2005, 11:04:08 AM »

Luckily we have a mechanism for resolving the nagging existence of "bad ideas" and seemingly out-of-continuity stories --the concept of the multiverse.  Who's to say that the whiz kid stories did not take place on an alternate Earth-TRS80?

Quote from: "JulianPerez"

Speaking of Kirby, TELLE, a while ago we had a conversation about writer artists and I made a pretty darn bold statement, which was that without a writer to guide pacing, Kirby's art got "lazier and more simplified." You called me on this, and I wasn't certain what to say, as something like the complexity and business of art is a subjective choice. Perhaps one possible way of determining whether Kirby's art is "busier" come FOURTH WORLD is by panel count than when he was working with a writer.

...

Perhaps I'm working from the premise that brevity is better, and the less brevity, the less impressive the art is. And further, the function of art in a comic is to advanced the story and not for its own sake. Perhaps you don't share this belief. However, that's the criteria I judged Kirby by.


re: Kirby

2 of the great themes of superhero comics are escape and transformation, and no one embodies these ideas better than Jack Kirby. Kirby doesn't just work through these grand narratives in terms of plot and character but through his drawing --the foundation of comics as a visual narrative art.  To tell you the truth, these days I'm less concerned with the writerly, literary mechanics of the story at hand than I am with the texture and weight of the art and how it is balanced with hand-lettered text (also art).  So whether Kirby's cartooning advances the nominal plot or character, it still tells a story.  And what I usually take away from his comics has to do with the visual --although many times it is a perfect combination of words and pictures: I find myself recalling the sequence from Jimmy Olsen where the Guardian is introduced as a sort of mantra during times of personal crisis ("I am strong --let me out!  I sense trouble!  My mission is to defend --to protect!  You face disaster!").  One of the most beautiful sequences in any art form.

I realize that in the service of a commercial dramatic medium, intended largely for children and teenagers, with fairly rigid requirements in terms of closure and clarity, Kirby can seem self-indulgent and even narratively illogical (I might even say charmingly clueless --although his pictures are never confusing).  And in no one does that behaviour seem more inexcusable than in Kirby, an experienced veteran and businessman who ran his own production shop and was a mentor and inspiration to many other artists.  However, it seems that more is going on in later-period Kirby than a slow drift into lazy self-indulgence, although he was getting older.

In the first place, Kirby is working on a different scale and with a more long-term plan, at least in the New Gods stuff: his stories and art are spread out.  Secondly, I like to see his cartooning as operating metaphorically to embody the themes I mentioned above, consciously or not.  Many of Kirby's characters are encased or imprisoned in some way.  Their costumes and situations are awkward shells from which they struggle to escape, lumbering about Frankenstein-monster-style, eyes bugging out. More and more in his cartooning, regular panel size and pacing reflect these concerns.
Third, I think that despite the epic scope of much of his later work, Kirby was exercising a lighter touch --more humour, more goofiness, less concern with genre conventions.  His ideas about the meaning of his work, his audience and the nature of the medium seem to have changed quite a bit.  Also, in many ways he seems to be operating almost as a folk artist, channelling the bric-a-brac of pop culture through his work, all the while embracing a more overtly science-fictional world view (without strict genre trappings) of an incrementally transformative humanity, entusiastically heralding "The World that is Coming!"

That being said, there are some later examples (in his 70s Captain America, say) where his plotting seems tighter, and the art more servile! Cheesy
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2005, 04:09:58 PM »

Quote from: "Kurt Busiek"
I don't have a problem with a story where a couple of kids with a computer wind up helping Superman out.  If pressed, I'll figure that the TRS-80, in a DCU that's been doing cool science for years and years, is a better machine than it was on Earth-Prime.  Big deal.


Whether the computer is good enough to do the calculation isn't the point. It probably is good enough, even in the real world. I can remember when I was in college, back in the early eighties where time on the college's mainframe was strictly rationed, I did a heat transfer calculation on my roommate's TRS-80. I reduced the problem to a power series on paper and then had to let the computer run all night evaluating the series, but the computer had no problem grinding out the answer.

The point is whether having the answer to the calculation would do Superman any good. Sure, you can tell him he needs to beam out thirty-two kilojoules of heat, but how does he know when he's done that, especially given his brain-addled state in the story?

Quote from: "TELLE"
Luckily we have a mechanism for resolving the nagging existence of "bad ideas" and seemingly out-of-continuity stories --the concept of the multiverse. Who's to say that the whiz kid stories did not take place on an alternate Earth-TRS80?


Let's call it Earth-P, for Product Placement. Smiley  Probably the same continuity in which all those Twinkie ads take place. Smiley
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