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Author Topic: Al Franken  (Read 22731 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2005, 03:59:11 AM »

Not to disregard your concept, NotSuper, which might be interesting, however, there's something about Krypton that doesn't jibe well with the presence of complicated religion. When religion IS mentioned, it is usually in the context of 1) being in the past, or 2) superstition that is an obstacle that our Atomic Supermen scientist heroes have to overcome, as in Bridwell's KRYPTON CHRONICLES where the technocrats cuckold the theocrats.

Krypton was intended to be a Hugo Gernsback-type world involving a high-tech future. This generally does not fit in with the universes created by writers in that vein, because generally such science fiction worlds tend to be atheistic. Things changed in the 1950s and 1960s with writers like Ray Bradbury expressing religious longing in "He Just Left" and the use of religion as a political force, as was done in DUNE. However, when religion shows up at all in the art deco science fiction vein that Krypton emulates, it usually is made to be fraudulent with a secret behind it, as in Burroughs' Mars books.

In general, though, the writers knew what they were doing when they barely touched religion in Krypton worldbuilding. The exception is on idols and ancient deities, which like the weird-sounding gods in FLASH GORDON, added to the exoticism of Krypton.

I also wouldn't agree with the premise that Superman ought to be Jewish because his creators were Jewish, because in the case of Superman the influence of their ethnicity on the character itself is negligible. Would Superman be the same person if he was created by say, Italian immigrants? He would be different, but not TOO different. Contrast that with, say, Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT, a series that is much more semitic in behavior, appearance, influence, and outlook.

Here's a question: what religion would the Varasto island natives practice?
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Permanus
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2005, 10:33:46 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
I also wouldn't agree with the premise that Superman ought to be Jewish because his creators were Jewish, because in the case of Superman the influence of their ethnicity on the character itself is negligible. Would Superman be the same person if he was created by say, Italian immigrants? He would be different, but not TOO different. Contrast that with, say, Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT, a series that is much more semitic in behavior, appearance, influence, and outlook.

I have to thank you for the vision that just popped into my head of Martha Kent as an Italian Mamma, plying young Clark with pasta and decorating the walls with photographs of his First Holy Communion.

Good point about the essential Jewishness of The Spirit, too: I've often thought how striking it is that though the main cast of characters, from Denny Colt to Dolan, have Irish or English surnames, they are all unmistakably Jewish somehow -- even Ebony White.
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NotSuper
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« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2005, 05:14:00 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
.I also wouldn't agree with the premise that Superman ought to be Jewish because his creators were Jewish, because in the case of Superman the influence of their ethnicity on the character itself is negligible. Would Superman be the same person if he was created by say, Italian immigrants? He would be different, but not TOO different. Contrast that with, say, Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT, a series that is much more semitic in behavior, appearance, influence, and outlook.

Technically, he'd only be half Jewish. Martha Kent would be a Protestant. Clark would celebrate both Christmas and Hanukkah, as well as any Kryptonian holidays when he was older. I don't think Superman has to be Jewish just because Joe and Jerry were, I just think it would be something cool to add to the mythos. I could certainly tell some good stories with it.

I certainly wouldn't make Superman completely Semetic. Rather, I'd portray him mostly the same. As I've said, I'm not religious at all. I just enjoy the idea of coming up with religions for characters. It's fun.

Quote
Here's a question: what religion would the Varasto island natives practice?

Ah, that's one thing I've put much thought into. I see them practicing a form of ancestor worship, but many of them would also practice the religions of the unified Kryptonians. I'd see there being a big contingent of Helio Raoists there. BTW, let me explain some of the different religions:

Agnosticism - Obviously the name would be different, but it's basically the same thing. Jor-El would fall into this category, as would most of the scientists on Krypton.

Atheism - Belief in no gods. Again, same as here.

Helio Raoism - Worship of their sun as a god, identified with Rao (also the name of their sun). This religion was mainly used between Classical Raoism and Neo-Raoism, though there are still followers today.

Neo-Raoism - Worship of Rao as the one and only god, the being that created Krypton, the sun Rao, and the universe. This was Krypton's biggest religion before Machina Raoism. Lara would belong to this religion.

Classical Raoism - Worship of Rao and an entire pantheon of gods. This religion has declined, but still has a fair share of followers.

Machina Raoism - Basically the same as human deism. Believers see Rao as creating the universe and making it similar to a machine that runs by itself. They believe Rao has no further involvement with the universe.

Ancestor Worship - Similar to our own ancient forms, but Kryptonians have a better way to store knowledge, so it's bigger there.

Progenism - The worship of the god-like beings Kryp and Tonn, who created everything on Krypton.

Technoism - These Kryptonians believe that science should dictate every action Kryptonians make.
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Many people want others to accept their opinions as fact. If enough people accept them as fact then it gives the initial person or persons a feeling of power. This is why people will constantly talk about something they hate—they want others to feel the same way. It matters to them that others perceive things the same way that they do.
NotSuper
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« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2005, 05:18:39 PM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
That's how the character was in the myth. however for me what was more disturbing was not the decapitation, which you really didn't see, but the fact that it happen because Lara was going to kill her own son after she found out that he wasn't really from Krypton and of course Jor-El's reaction when he found out what happen to his wife. Again, they stay true to the Bryne versions.

I don't think the Byrne Kryptonians (at least Jor-El and Lara) would be evil. They were more like unemotional robots, except for Jor-El, who liked the old Krypton. Additionally, alien life couldn't survive on the planet because of the Eradicator. I know too much about the post-Crisis Krypton. Smiley

Still, the story is very good. Kudos to your friend.
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Many people want others to accept their opinions as fact. If enough people accept them as fact then it gives the initial person or persons a feeling of power. This is why people will constantly talk about something they hate—they want others to feel the same way. It matters to them that others perceive things the same way that they do.
Super Monkey
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« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2005, 05:48:39 PM »

Agnosticism and Atheism are not religions Wink
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Great Rao
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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2005, 03:28:06 AM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Agnosticism and Atheism are not religions Wink

There are some who would disagree with that.  I've known some pretty fanatical atheists in my time.

S!
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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
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« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2005, 03:41:35 AM »

Quote from: "Great Rao"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Agnosticism and Atheism are not religions Wink

There are some who would disagree with that.  I've known some pretty fanatical atheists in my time.

S!


Same here, but those people are anti-religious rather than non-religious.  :wink:
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« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2005, 07:45:41 AM »

Superman is partly about HOPE.  Its a religious and philosophical idea that things will get better, so don't give up trying to make them that way in the meantime. Don't quit.   I think you could be an agnostic or atheist and still believe in Hope, truth, justice, and some of the other virtues and ideas associated with Superman.
I know  some Agnostics and some Atheists. THe ones I know would be insulted to say they are the same things.  Though pegging down an universal definition for each seems to elude me when I try to interview agnostics and atheists.  "A" as a prefix means "not" and gnostic is from the greek word for "to know" or " To experientially know", not just intellectiually. At least in some older greek definitions. So an agnostic if he is what his name is , is a person who doesn't confess a certain organized denomination or religion, but who admits that he just doesn't know or know for sure yet, and may change. It's his philosophy which is mostly like a religion since its a belief system which influences different aspects of their life and choices. I am glad the USA is a place where one can freely choose to be an agnostic if he wants to. Its covered in the bill of rights.  Atheism is the philosophy of "a " , not, "theism" (theo) God, or god. They do not believe in God or gods but may believe in other things and thus have a philosophy too.   Sometimes this atheism is extended to say they do not believe in anything, (except for themselves and atheism).
Also covered by the bill of rights.   Still no matter what one believes, when you look at the infinite diversity in infinite combinations and amazing detail of specification and clarity in the natural world around us and in the universe, one has to ask the question: Is there an intelligence that is behind this marvelous nature? Do you see a Mind behind the Work?
Question: do you see  the touch of a Master Artist's hand in the masterpiece of the universe?  Some are unconvinced all their lives , yet others only see it when they study science and mathematics. Whether those who see a Creator or Creative force of some sort which orchestrated this universe are percieving the truth (and thus call out for help in prayer) or whether they are just imagining or self-deluding themselves is for each individual to decide.  Yet I would suggest that you not rush it. It's unlikely it all happened "accidentally" isn't it?  When I was 12 I thought my father I knew everything and he didn't know anything. Now that I am 45 I think he was one of the wisest men in the world and I am just begining to learn.  The Truth is out there. Seek .
Not everybody is the same.
Madelyne Murray Ohara who I think was an atheist had a son who is a born again Christian!
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