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Author Topic: Superman compared to other DC Comics Martial Artists  (Read 7352 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2006, 09:44:10 PM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
Actually, Ted does take on Ali in "The New Frontier." Well, sort of. We never get a clear look at the guy, but he's billed as "Clay," is battling a 37-year-old Ted for the Heavyweight championship circa 1959 or 60, and Ted himself reflects (having nearly been counted out after a punch from young Clay) that the guy is probably the greatest fighter to ever put on the gloves.

Anyway, Ted beats him, but only by shifting to his super-hero mindset and clobbering the guy as he would the Ultra-Humanite. Inelegant, but effective.

Of course, this series occurs outside of continuity. But then again, this is DC -- next month it might be in continuity after all.


Hmmm! I was not aware of this, but what is interesting about this is that it shows how important adrenaline is for superheroes. In real life, there are stories of Grannies flipping over cars to save babies. Any really astonishing feat, like Hawkeye and Green Arrow's one-in-a-million arrow tricks, or the way Golden Age Atom and Dr. Midnight always seem to never drop in battle, may be related to this phenomenon. Wildcat could clean the clock of Ali if he just put himself in a mentality where it was life and death.

Quote from: "nightwing"
The filmmakers are perfectly willing to ask us to believe -- and audiences are eager to accept -- that Bruce Wayne can outfight any dozen men with the exact same training he's had.


Well...this may be plausible. After all, Martial Arts is as much about "talent" and physical potential as it is about training.

Quote from: "nightwing"
With his powers, again, it rarely comes up. Superman can beat anyone less powerful than himself no matter what their moves. And anyone on his power level is likely to have the same approach as he would: just punch hard and leave the fancy moves to the Black Canaries of the world.


It is true that Superman's physical skills just never come up because his powers are more effective. Although there were some Gerry Conway-penned instances of Superman using a skill like Judo on normal, non-powered foes, as he ought not to actually be STRIKING enemies without superpowers.

Quote from: "nightwing"
 But it's too much to suggest he could actually develop his battle suit, the Batmobile or any other gadget on his own...they were all "borrowed" from someone else. This bugs me. Bring back the smart Batman! Even if it means he gets beat up from time to time.


Agreed. One of the initial pitches for BATMAN BEGINS was that there was going to be an emphasis on Batman's detective skills.

I did like, though, about BATMAN BEGINS that Batman had a degree of frailty and mortality; for instance, he fell from a rooftop and injured himself, and had trouble saving one man from a mountaintop. Everyone always says they like Batman because he's mortal, but there's more to that than firing laser beams.
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
NotSuper
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2006, 06:47:16 AM »

Personally, I've always been a fan of Batman being more of a deductic and strategic genius than a scientific one. True, he is a scientist (as Homer Simpson will tell you), but I don't think he should be a super-scientist like Luthor or Grodd. In other words, having him create complex chemical compounds would be fine, but having him help repair a time machine wouldn't.

As for Superman, I've never really been comfortable with him being a great martial artist. It somehow seems wrong to me. That's not to say that he shouldn't be a good fighter--just not one of the greatest on Earth.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2006, 07:19:02 AM »

Mention ought to be made of power-duplicating creatures that can make use of the Martial Arts abilities of the teams they copy.

They always keep on saying how Amazo duplicates the powers and skills of the entire Justice League, and in theory he can, however, I cannot recall any occasion offhand that he duplicated fighting skill. On the other hand, Super-Duper, the Machine Made Menace, another composite creature, DID use Batman's Judo skill in one occasion (presumably at Batman's level).
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
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nightwing
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2006, 02:07:24 AM »

Julian Perez writes:

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I did like, though, about BATMAN BEGINS that Batman had a degree of frailty and mortality; for instance, he fell from a rooftop and injured himself, and had trouble saving one man from a mountaintop. Everyone always says they like Batman because he's mortal, but there's more to that than firing laser beams.


Don't get me wrong, I liked a lot of things about the movie.  But it's obvious a great deal of time and effort was spent trying to make everything "plausible", from showing where Bruce got his skills to why he chose bats as his symbol and so on.  And to me, it seems Bruce's technical skills and engineering know-how went out the window as things otherwise too hard to explain.  A guy who can climb up buildings and perch on towers 50 stories up?  We'll buy that.  A guy who can beat 20 other guys at once?  No problem.  Somehow transporting a top-secret vehicle from a downtown testing lab to a mansion in the suburbs without anyone noticing?  Okay, fine.  Having no one at Wayne Enterprises recognize this one-of-a-kind vehicle from TV news footage even though the only thing that's changed about it is the paint job?  Sure, that could happen.  But don't ask us to believe Bruce Wayne is smart enough to invent his own stuff, because that's just ridiculous.

I think we've just crossed the line from a time when things like scientific know-how and mechanical genius were admired to a time when those same things are considered dorky and uncool (a job for old guys like Lucius Fox and James Bond's "Q", geezers who wear bow ties and work in basements).  And again, I'd rather have Batman be a master of deduction, invention and science than a master of 100 obscure martial arts.  When you get right down to it, the only thing that makes him special is his brain.  In a world full of superheroes he will always be a weak sister (even if Grant Morrison and others have tried to make him a match for Galactus).

NotSuper writes:

Quote
Personally, I've always been a fan of Batman being more of a deductic and strategic genius than a scientific one. True, he is a scientist (as Homer Simpson will tell you), but I don't think he should be a super-scientist like Luthor or Grodd. In other words, having him create complex chemical compounds would be fine, but having him help repair a time machine wouldn't.


Yes, but building and repairing the batmobile is far cry from building an inter-dimensional portal or whatever.  I always loved those old stories where Batman and Robin put on goggles, grab their blow torches and set about building a new 'mobile or Bat-Plane.  (In fact the scene of Keaton fixing the car in "Returns" was one of the few high points in that film for me).  Somehow it's just not as cool to have Bruce farm out all those jobs.
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llozymandias
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2006, 02:34:35 AM »

I also prefer a Batman who creates his own gear.  It's easier to have parts & components delivered to Wayne Manor without raising suspicions.  If he builds the Batmobile himself, it's less of a security risk for him.  If he has an already built Batmobile to the mansion (does not matter that he will change a few minor details) it helps put his double identity at risk.  Bruce should never be seen in possesion of things that are later publicly known to be Batman's equipment.  


      Julian; Ali did not beat Kal in that special edition from the 70s.  He beat another human boxer, who was disguised to look like Kal.
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John Martin, citizen of the omniverse.
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2006, 06:33:57 PM »

I have a notion that a modern Martha Kent (e.g. the L&C characterization) would teach young Clark tai chi, learning how to calm down, how to redirect force without doing anything superhurtful, hiding invulnerability in response to the unexpected, etc.  I can't imagine where Clark would feel the need to do a "hard" style, but all sorts of reasons where a "soft" style might be good for him (and for the parents who might want to handle him if he gets out of line Smiley ).
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