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Poll
Question: Is Superman, in fact, out of the Dark Ages?  (Voting closed: January 15, 2006, 06:19:13 AM)
Yes - 2 (20%)
No - 2 (20%)
Too soon to tell - 6 (60%)
Total Voters: 10

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Author Topic: Is Superman out of the Dark Ages?  (Read 11298 times)
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TELLE
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2006, 07:09:50 AM »

Quote from: "Klar Ken T5477"
I wish Dawryn Cooke was doing Supes instead of the Spirit.


I wish he was doing the now-on-hold creator-owned "dream project" that he mentioned in a few interviews instead of gnawing on a few of Wil Eisner's old bones.  He certainly has the career momentum to break free of the comic book plantation system.

(PS: I loved Alan Moore and Daniel Torres' Spirit pastiche!)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2006, 10:04:41 AM »

Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"
I think the selection of comics will continue to be partly good, partly crap. Just buy the best ones...money talks. Well, sometimes.


This is precisely the very thing that makes me think that we're coming out of the dark times.

If you think about it, this was always true, wasn't it? There were always lousy writers. Marv Wolfman did his best work to titles other than Superman. But nonetheless, his stories were interesting because he was made to write stories about SUPERMAN, and made them Superman stories, having the main character continue to behave as he was characterized as behaving.

Is the reason we're all so jazzed about A-S-S is because it features a return of a confident, fearless characterization to Superman....or because it actually is fantastic? Morrison is at best, an alright writer. But the reason A-S-S feels much more magnificent because it is Superman just written correctly.

It's not just all about talent. Talent can come and go, but was is important is, with INFINITE CRISIS, and with BIRTHRIGHT, a straightforward, correct vision of the character and his world has been created that future writers have to abide by. A vision created by people that understand who the character is. It isn't so much that Busiek and Geoff Johns are coming to write Superman; it's that they're setting the ground floor on how the character is to be written for the next 10 years.

Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"
There are positive signs- a new movie, Smallville is good this year, JLU is one of the best shows on television. Krypto has a show, and there are several good comics on the market. "It's Superman" is a bestselling novel, and the Adventures of Superman is a bestselling TV Show. Bottom line...Superman is popular again, and there are avenues to express your capitalist pig support for him.


It's unfortunate that this sort of success is seldom mirrored in the comics. When the X-MEN movie was released, the Marvel offices put Chuck Austen, that boil on the behind of the industry, on an X-Book.


Quote from: "Superman Forever"
Busiek is excelent but is more of a marvel guy than a DC Silver Age guy.


While I love Gardner Fox and John Broome and their talents are a credit to everyone involved, DC only REALLY started getting absolutely terrific when the Marvel people started coming over. When Steve Englehart did BATMAN and JUSTICE LEAGUE, Steve Gerber did possibly one of the greatest comics of the 1970s with his METAL MEN run, Roy Thomas started doing ALL-STAR SQUADRON and really, everything else at one time or another. Gerry Conway was alright, however,  his JLA had more high points than low ones.

I admit to some slight bias as I am primarily a fan of Marvel Comics (with the exception of Superman, of course) but the perspective that these writers brought when they came to DC: taking the characters seriously and with reverence, giving them witty, streetwise dialogue, bestowing their personalities with idiosyncrasies and humor, and tying their history together and created connections based on previous stories...it was magnificent to watch.

Quote from: "Klar Ken T5477"
And like Nightwing, Id rather spend my $ on Showcase editions.


You've got a point there. SHOWCASE and ARCHIVE Editions are pretty awesome, aren't they?
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2006, 04:29:49 AM »

Personally, I don't think Superman, or all of DC, is anywhere near out of the Dark Ages.  Let's see..

-Batman is now a metahuman-fearing paranoid who ended up being the one to unwittingly create Brother I, and thus is responsible for the OMACs.

-Wonder Woman cold-bloodedly murdered Max Lord (who was inexplicably Evil).  This has caused an understandable Rift between her, Batman and Superman.

-The Justice League has apparantly been a bunch of mind-wiping, brain-washing goits since the Silver Age.

-Dr Light is, and apparantly always was, prior to his mindwipe, a disgusting rapist.

-The Giffen-era JLA is dropping like flies.

-Hal Jordan's return and exoneration from his actions as Parallax are strongly criticized on some forums; "The Yellow Fear Monster" has been called one of the worst retcons in ages.

-And now, in Infinite Crisis, apparantly the villains are Earth-2 Golden Age Superman, Alex Luthor and Superboy-Prime.

...And that's not counting all the deaths, betrayals and other forms of grittiness that have been shown in all of the books as of late, including having Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew come back in a mock storyline which very much parodies the dark tone comics have taken as of late.

Superman's not out of the Dark Ages by a long shot.

...Oh, and personally, Kyle Rayner's my favorite Green Lantern.  Say what you will about the man, but in my eyes, he's earned the right to wear the Ring, and nobody can take that way from him.
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« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2006, 02:42:27 AM »

Quote from: "lonewolf23k"
-And now, in Infinite Crisis, apparantly the villains are Earth-2 Golden Age Superman, Alex Luthor and Superboy-Prime.


This is the part that hurts the most. :cry:

Until everyone stops buying it, they won't stop making it (and I have a hunch it will be hard to stop even then).  And this is the most talked about series of the year, with the sales to back it up.  It even caused a some categorical changes here, on the forums dedicated to the quality comics of yesteryear (and I ain't talking about Phantom Lady).
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2006, 02:50:39 AM »

I believe the Crisis forum are only Temporary.
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2006, 04:09:57 PM »

Thank Rao for small mercies! Cheesy

I shouldn't complain --I love all the pre-Crisis Crisis stories (even the weird ones) and I may even get nostalgic for COIE one day.  And I'm sure I'll pick up that Morrison book when collected.
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2006, 05:43:39 AM »

I think we'll know the answer to the question for sure one year after Infinite Crisis is over. It might be a good idea to revisit this thread then and see if things are truly better.

As I've said before, I'm very optimistic about the future. While Superman won't be reverted to one of his past eras (nor do I think he should--we need a new age), he will crawl out of the Iron Age.

But what exactly is the Iron Age? I don't think strong violence or sexual content is what the Iron Age is about. On the contrary, you can still have good stories using both of those elements. To me, the Iron Age is a mindset. One of the main themes of the age seems to be that "heroes" can't change the world, and are, indeed, powerless against the forces of evil. It's like one big Greek tragedy (only not written as well). Granted, I don't see the Iron Age as some kind of uncreative Hell, I just see it as the lesser of ALL the previous ages. The good stories just weren't very common.

My prediction: We'll still have the violence and strong sexual content (which I have no problem with) but we'll also have heroes acting like heroes. The heroes will also actually be able to affect the world in positive ways. Long-time characters will be treated with dignity and respect, and if they do die they'll die as heroes. I see optimism and cynicism being in conflict in the DCU, but ultimately I see optimism winning out.

That's just a prediction, though.
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Many people want others to accept their opinions as fact. If enough people accept them as fact then it gives the initial person or persons a feeling of power. This is why people will constantly talk about something they hate—they want others to feel the same way. It matters to them that others perceive things the same way that they do.
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2006, 07:41:52 PM »

Waaaay to early to call. If anything DC has actuallybeen more annoying because they'll make fun of the whole Iron/Dark Age approach yet it's really hard to laugh at the joke when the joke is being put out by the purveyor of the exact crap being made fun of. It's like if you know this is stupid then STOP DOING IT!

I'd almost have more respect for DC if they just came out and said "Ok, screw all you, we like grim n' gritty and we're gonna keep raping and killing and tearing down the image of the hero for years to come." This constant back and forth is just kinda cowardly. How can you talk about wanting to fix Batman from being a jerk and still publish an insult like All Star B&R?

As I've said before, I really hope I'm wrong and that maybe this whole thing wil turn out with their being a return of fun, a return of heroes, and a return to DC superhero comicbooks that you could share with people of various ages. Yes, even kids.

But still seems to me that Earth 2 Superman is being used as some sort of effigy meant to represent folks who want to move away from grimschlock and as such will end up as a dupe, a fool, or worse a villan and that the whole thing is just one huge giant justification to keep cranking out the darkness.
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