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Author Topic: Wolfman Howls  (Read 5777 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2006, 08:08:53 PM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
Julian, you had me up until you quoted Sean Penn.  Not exactly a mensa cadidate, that one.


The funny thing about a quote like that is, you see it and your response is, "gee, lighten up, buddy." But then you start to find ways to apply it, like now.

Quote from: "nightwing"
And I thought Beetle bought the farm before Infinite Crisis even started?


Yes, in a preview that was written by Johns.

Quote from: "nightwing"
Anyway, I'm no fan of Giffen-era JLA either, but I did kind of like the Freedom Fighters, if admittedly for no defensible reason.


I suppose I agree with you somewhat. It is...unnerving...to hear about characters dying because what that means is, if they can kill characters you don't like, sooner or later they're going to get to somebody you DO. Mr. Atom, for instance, a great Marvel Family villain. Though, he IS a robot; the door is open for any writer to just bring him back by having someone rebuild him for something.

I was horrified by the death of the Freedom Fighters at first. But the more I think about it, the better a choice it was. For one thing, unfortunately, no great writer saw their potential and did a really fantastic Freedom Fighters series. They were just sort of...THERE, the superhero equivalent of the guy that shows up at a party, never talks to anybody, and just sits in a corner. And perhaps this fits in with a greater plan for the DC-Multiverse that is being restored; note, for instance, that Earth-2 was recently restored, and the Freedom Fighters were all from Earth-X.

Quote from: "nightwing"
It just seems to me like killing off characters -- only to bring back new ones with the same name who are just as dull if not worse -- is about the most overused cheap stunt in modern comics, and how it could still provide any impact at all is beyond me.


There's always going to be a Flash, because you can't keep a good thing like that down.

Somehow though, I suspect we're not going to see another Human Bomb.
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2006, 08:51:59 PM »

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Yes, in a preview that was written by Johns.


Okay, didn't know he wrote it.  But your quote was, "then came IC," and in fact that title begins after Ted's death.  Speaking of which, if Geoff wrote the scene where Ted's head gets ventilated, I'm inching even further away from the pro-Johns camp.

Quote
I suppose I agree with you somewhat. It is...unnerving...to hear about characters dying because what that means is, if they can kill characters you don't like, sooner or later they're going to get to somebody you DO.


No, that's not it, actually.  Frankly, death means absolutely squat in comics.  If they want a character back from the dead, they'll bring him back from the dead, no matter how many pieces we saw him torn into.  So the minute a publisher says, "we're killing a prominent character!" my immediate response is, "So what?"  It's like soap operas where they expect me to get upset that the girl is marrying the wrong guy.  I'm supposed to sit there and say, "No, don't ruin your life by marrying that cad!" but instead I'm thinking, "Knock yourself out, no marriage on this show lasts longer than 6 months, anyway."

No, what bothers me is that killing characters is such a cheap thrill, or rather was a cheap thrill the first thousand times it was done.  Now it's not even interesting.  It's the first resort of an unimaginative mind.  Sure, nobody ever did anything interesting with the Freedom Fighters, but who's to say nobody ever could?  Marvelman was a dumb rip-off of another character until Alan Moore got hold of him.  Animal Man was a total loss until his series in the 90s.  The X-Men were one of Stan's few failures until Wein and Cockrum retooled them in the 70s.  To me it's a total cop-out to kill a character because he "never worked anyway" when history shows a talented writer can make anything work.

Which is not to defend or eulogize any of the victims of Superboy's bloodbath...I don't recognize a single one of them and I'll never miss them.  They're just ciphers...people in costumes with one purpose in life and that is to be cannon fodder.  If Johns didn't murder them for a cheap thrill, some other hack would have soon enough. But let's not kid ourselves; ripping people to pieces is something that happens in comic books (not horror movies, mind you...not military fiction...a comic book) for one reason and one reason only, and that is to appeal to the lowest common denominator, the bloodthirsty fanboys.  I'm not one of them.

Quote
I was horrified by the death of the Freedom Fighters at first. But the more I think about it, the better a choice it was. For one thing, unfortunately, no great writer saw their potential and did a really fantastic Freedom Fighters series. They were just sort of...THERE, the superhero equivalent of the guy that shows up at a party, never talks to anybody, and just sits in a corner. And perhaps this fits in with a greater plan for the DC-Multiverse that is being restored; note, for instance, that Earth-2 was recently restored, and the Freedom Fighters were all from Earth-X.


Again, the fact that they'd never been done well yet doesn't mean they couldn't have been.  Now there's no chance for that.  And let's be honest here; what we have seen is not the end of the Freedom Fighters as a concept.  What we have seen is the door opening for the next generation of also-rans: a new Phantom Lady, a new Ray (this one was already the second), a new Black Condor (also up to Mark II and counting) and so on.  Only this time they'll be Puerto Rican or women or both, and their book will be canceled in less than a year.

And not to nit-pick, but the Freedom Fighters were actually from Earth-2.  They travelled to Earth-X in order to fight Nazis, as Earth-X was a world with no resident superheroes.  Reading a caption on that scanned page of IC 4 at Dial B for Blog, I think this is a detail that escaped Johns as well.
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2006, 09:25:16 PM »

The issue of character death has come up again...and I have to say I don't like character deaths. Wolfman is responsible for lots of them, and now Johns...but I still hate character deaths. Scratch that....I hate character death aftermaths.

Consider the story of Blue Beetle's death. It was well-written, tragic, and heroic. At the end of the story, you were really sorry that Blue Beetle was dead. But have you seen what the new Blue Beetle is going to look like. Seems like a laughable replay of the 90s to me.

I'm no great fan of the late-80s Justice League...but someone loves them. I think it's a mistake to kill them off like this. I think it's a mistake to kill off all the Freedom Fighters in one issue (especially if Uncle Sam is dead...that's just wrong.) I think it's a mistake to kill off half of the Titans in one issue, and I think it's a mistake to impale a woman on a stick.

We've had four issues of Crisis so far. Two of them seemed to have been written by a man like Jeph Loeb, someone with respect for the characters.. However, two of them seemed to have been written by Quentin Tarantino...so I'm witholding judgment on Johns for now.
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2006, 09:43:22 PM »

Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"
two of them seemed to have been written by Quentin Tarantino...so I'm witholding judgment on Johns for now.


At least Quentin Tarantino likes Superman enough to include that classic speech in Kill Bill 2 (he didn't write it but to even know where to get it from shows what a true blue fanboy he is) Johns didn't seem to be able to figure that out yet. Quentin Tarantino is all about staying true to the genres of his films, if he ever did a Super hero movie, I bet it would look like a Sliver Age comic book brought to life.
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2006, 11:20:17 PM »

Knowing Quentin it would be Luke Cage, old skool style.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2006, 11:34:06 PM »

Quote from: "Klar Ken T5477"
Knowing Quentin it would be Luke Cage, old skool style.


That may be the coolest thing I've ever heard. Of course, it would have tons of pop culture references to Looking Glass and collars that you can hang glide off of.
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2006, 12:10:54 AM »

Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"
The issue of character death has come up again...and I have to say I don't like character deaths. Wolfman is responsible for lots of them


Several trillion, no?  Or is it an "infinite" number?

The most (and best) character development in the Freedom Fighters took place in one panel, when Doll Man confessed his love for Phantom Lady moments before Mxy and Batmite destroyed their universe in World's Funnest.   Best multi-universe cross-over and destruction ever!  The best drawn, as well.

I enjoyed large parts of Kill Bill but that Superman thing was leaden.
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2006, 09:25:09 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Quote from: "Klar Ken T5477"
Knowing Quentin it would be Luke Cage, old skool style.


That may be the coolest thing I've ever heard.

I second that. Wow! What a concept!

I've heard that someone-I-never-heard-of is making a Luke Cage movie (actually, I don't think they've even started shooting so it'll probably all fall through), but they're going wit' da hip-hop gangsta angle rather than Shaft.
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