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Author Topic: A Sermon Supreme #3: Know your enemy, but do not become him!  (Read 14655 times)
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2006, 01:21:35 AM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Then there is MatterEaterLad, who thinks that the 1970's were too modern for his taste, but he is a lovable old chap and besides most people just skip over his posts anyway.


LOL! See? Cheesy
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Gangbuster
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2006, 02:01:31 AM »

"Stupid Monkey!" This series of thread are supposed to be overgeneralized, highly opinionated rants, and are designated as such! And then you had to go and take it all seriously..... Cheesy

Well, if it's data that you want, try this on for size...

A forum search for the word "hate" returns nearly 180 results. Sourpusses on this forum hate nearly everything! Examples include:

"hell, I hate living in Italy."
-falck44, hater of Italy.

"I spend money on comics I hate! I will never forgive Ultimate Avengers for their stupid Bush-era francophobia, but for some reason I still pick it up."
- Permanus, hater of comics that he buys anyway.

"I hate to criticize such an obviously worthwhile project that all involved seem (deservedly) passionate about, but the newly-drawn, color-ized version of that panel eliminates all of the charm and storytelling power of the original."
- TELLE, hater of K-Metal.

"I hate the "Lex Luthor, businessman..."
-Permanus, hater of fine coats and ties.

"Boy, do I hate decompressed storytelling."
- Super Monkey, hater of Superman: Birthright.

"Oh how I hate truth, justice, and the American way. Viva la communista!"
                     - Great Rao, hater of America.*

"Rao said what? I ought to punch him in the nose..."
                    - Kurt Busiek*

So, as you can see from this example, Superman Through the Ages users hate a great number of positive, uplifting things. And that's not all...Superman Through the Ages users hate FREEDOM! (I will present evidence for this outrageous claim later...)



*denotes posts that were completely made up
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"Trying to capture my wife, eh? That makes me SUPER-MAD!"

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JulianPerez
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2006, 05:57:42 AM »

I agree with the above post you typed, Gangbuster Thorul.

I for one, do my best to be upbeat, because I do genuinely love the character of Superman, his history, and his worldview. I am quite optimistic about his future, and given the caliber of his writing team (Johns and Busiek) I believe that he is in very good hands. Heck, while I'm not the biggest Morrison and Waid fan in the universe, they "get" Superman and write him well. I simply do not understand the "Superman is mired in the Dark Ages" negativity, from people that aren't actually reading his comics.

The reason I enjoy Superman depicted as moral and forthright is because that is who Superman IS, that is his defining traits as a character. Just as Daffy Duck's defining traits are his vanity and speech impediment. A Daffy who is selfless and considerate and has perfect diction isn't really Daffy.

HOWEVER - just because Superman is this variety of hero does not mean that other characters suffer because they are not exactly like Superman.

Just because Wally West was rebuilt by Waid in the image of Silver Age Superman does not make this a "good idea."

Just because Tarantino's characters are generally pimps, stoned gun-molls and psycho brides does not mean that his movies are devoid of entertainment value.

The most eggregious case of Super-Fundamentalism is found in a recent post by Great Rao which features a quote on the recent Sci-Fi Channel BATTLESTAR: GALACTICA series, condemning it because it was "morally bankrupt" and showcased violence. Nevermind the dramatic power of the series, brilliant writing by Moore and others, and desire to introduce complexity to the story with sympathetic villains.

Many cannot read S.M. Sterling's historical novels, because often his gleefully cruel, warlike, and evil bad guys occasionally triumph over the heroic and positively portrayed characters.

Yet this is not a reflection on the work itself.

The function of entertainment is not to provide moral instruction - this is the responsibility of parents and educators. What must be asked - with BSG and with S.M. Sterling and with Tarantino is, "does the story succeed under the rules it itself creates?"
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Permanus
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2006, 07:20:36 AM »

Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"
So, as you can see from this example, Superman Through the Ages users hate a great number of positive, uplifting things. And that's not all...Superman Through the Ages users hate FREEDOM! (I will present evidence for this outrageous claim later...)

Oh lordy, I got quoted twice! Now everyone is going to think I'm bitter, twisted and full of hate. Oh well, it was only a matter of time before I got unmasked.

I see the point you're making, though; one shouldn't be too fundamentalistic. I'm not a big continuity freak, for instance -- in fact, I think it often makes for bad comics because it ties a character down to too much history (hence the need for DC to do these "crises" every once in a while).
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nightwing
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2006, 03:33:44 PM »

Even though I wasn't quoted above (why won't anybody ever quote me?  :cry: ) I can't help thinking some of this is directed at myself, resident Crusty Curmudgeon of STTA since...well, since before there was a forum (I started my crankery back on the KAL-L mailing list!).

If so, tough!  I reserve the right to hate everything, and by the way stay off my lawn and turn down that music.

But I think a little perspective is necessary here.  This site was started as an antidote to the 90s-era Superman and DC's edict that nothing before 1986 mattered.  Rao made no secret that this site was for Pre-Crisis Superman lovers, and went out of his way to avoid acknowledging the character then in print.

Since then, a lot of positive things have happened at DC and Rao has been great about devoting attention and support to all of them.  There may be some cranky forum fussbudgets who are never happy about anything, but I think what we've seen at STTA as an institution is the reverse of what you describe.  Rather than a gradual descent into grumpiness and closed-mindedness, we have in fact seen a gradual thawing towards today's DC and a celebration of positive developments in Superman's world.  Eight years ago this site treated Superman as a figure of nostalgia...today there are boards devoted to the latest titles.

And we mustn't forget the reverse; a lot of the great things that have happened to Superman never would have, in my opinion, without this site, which gave longtime fans a voice that DC has heard.
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Gangbuster
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2006, 10:24:31 PM »

Quote from: "nightwing"

And we mustn't forget the reverse; a lot of the great things that have happened to Superman never would have, in my opinion, without this site, which gave longtime fans a voice that DC has heard.


I agree.  But there is a difference between this being a pre-Crisis site devoted to the "real" Superman, and the attitude that is sometimes taken toward people who wish to discuss new things. I've been guilty of Superfundamentalism myself...someone brought up Lois and Clark airing on the Disney channel the other day, and he was worried about it.  Instead of offering suggestions, I just said "Good! It belongs on the Disney Channel!"  My Superfundamentalist, "take your Lois and Clark away from here" attitude didn't really solve his problem or help the guy at all. (I know that there's a Lois and Clark board here, but do you REALLY like the fact that the Kents are alive in his late 20s, he was never Superboy, etc.? Really?)
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"Trying to capture my wife, eh? That makes me SUPER-MAD!"

-"Superman", 1960

TELLE
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2006, 12:16:15 AM »

Rising to the bait...

Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"
A forum search for the word "hate" returns nearly 180 results. Sourpusses on this forum hate nearly everything! Examples include:


"I hate to criticize such an obviously worthwhile project that all involved seem (deservedly) passionate about, but the newly-drawn, color-ized version of that panel eliminates all of the charm and storytelling power of the original."
- TELLE, hater of K-Metal.


I stand by that remark and note that I actually hate criticizing a worthwhile, not-for-profit project (that is, I hate myself, or at least that part of myself that has to express an opinion when confronted by lacklustre art, even if expressing the opinion means I will be branded a sourpuss --the shame of it!).

Other things I hate:

-people who are so timid and turned off by the occasional critical or negative comment on message boards that they abandon same*

-bad art (but I hate the art, not the artist --cartoonists as a social class have my undying love, graditude and respect)

-fascism and the non-democratic nature of capitalism

Things I love:

-Superman comics, cartoons, film and video from the 30s to the 80s, plus some contemporary examples

-all the people at Superman Through the Ages

-comics as an artform, in general, including some comics made as disposable "entertainment" (mostly classic kids comics like Superman, etc) but mainly comics that don't offend my super-refined sensibilities

-free and open debate

-the Paris Commune of 1848 --Viva la communista!


*indicates an exageration
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Gangbuster
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2006, 12:56:09 AM »

I saw that thing you did on the other thread!

And I still hate* the fact that you didn't count cops as working class several months ago...just more evidence that while Superman is the folk hero of America, Superman Through the Ages actually HATES AMERICA! (Oh yeah, it feels good being able to finally use that phrase on someone else....)



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"Trying to capture my wife, eh? That makes me SUPER-MAD!"

-"Superman", 1960

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