superman.nuMary Immaculate of Lourdes NewtonHolliston School Committeefacebook    
  •   forum   •   COUNTDOWN TO MIRACLE MONDAY: "GENERAL DESTRUCTION!" •   fortress   •  
Superman Through the Ages! Forum
News: Superman Through the Ages! now located at theAges.superman.nu
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 27, 2024, 02:37:49 PM


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Average Joe-ism? Or something sinister..?  (Read 7364 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Kateacular
Jimmy Olsen Fan Club
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« on: February 13, 2006, 01:56:19 PM »

Hey all!
I'm currently taking a comic book and culture course at univeristy, and I chose to do an in-depth look at DC's revolutionary hero *dun dun dunnn* Superman!
I thought I'd post a few questions on here since I'm not as well versed in his characterization/history as I'd like to be, and I figure it'd be best to ask the experts! I'm looking at the pre-1960's Superman exclusively, and I'm trying to argue that his values and enemy-determination were reflective of the general consensus of the US public and social/political atmosphere at the time (as opposed to him being an outright fascist/racist: we had to take a stance on either side). I was wondering what your thoughts were on that? Essentially, was he a fascist 'superman' in the literal sense? Or just an average guy (well as average as he can be under the circumstances) who truely believed in truth and justice?
Also, in terms of his characterization back then-which, through research, I felt was somewhat neutral-would his persona work today? I have yet to fully explore his characterization in recent comics so unfortunately I can't take a concrete stance myself as of yet.
Well I think that's it for me! Any oppinions would be greatly appriciated. Thanks all!
~Kate
Logged
Genis Vell
Last Son of Krypton
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 262



« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2006, 02:35:04 PM »

Superman... a fascist? No way! He was more a tough vigilante.
Today, Superman is more "quiet" than in the Golden Age, 'cause he always tries to do the better thing without damages.
Do you remember what happened when he attacked Qurac in the mid '80s? He understood that a Superman haven't to play judge and jury (and executioner, when he killed the 3 Kryptonians).
£ years ago circa Joe Casey wrote a story about an old journalist who was writing a book about a character very similar to the Golden Age Superman. That story demonstrated that that type of character, compared to the more modern one, isn't the right one today.
Logged



Captain Marvel - Italian Earth-Prime Superman

...it'll be a job for Superman!
Permanus
Superman Squad
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 875



« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2006, 02:53:38 PM »

Well, I don't think the name Superman was ever intended in any Nietzschean (I can never remember how to spell that) sense. When Superman starts off in 1938, he's basically a New Dealer who fights corruption, stops war, that sort of thing. Covers of the 1940s often depict him fighting the Nazis ("Japanazis" in the colourful term of the day). It's worth remembering that his creators, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, were Jewish, and that his concerns were mainly theirs back then. (This aspect was explored by Michael Chabon in his novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay, in which the two main characters create a comic-book hero, The Escapist, to reflect their concerns about the rise of fascism in Europe.)

As time passed, though, after the war and into the fifties, Superman became less and less politically-minded, and his enemies were more of the science fiction mold -- aliens and whatnot. He didn't seem to get engaged much in the Cold War, though you might want to look at ther thread concerning Castro vs. Superman for some ideas about that (http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2333). I suppose many of those stories, like a lot of horror films of the same period, contain veiled references to the Red Menace, using alien invasions and visitors from the future to represent Communist spies and the fear of nuclear war. By the way, by this time, his invunerability extends to surviving atomic explosions -- I wonder if this is a way of telling the reader that the Bomb is our friend.

Superman is certainly intended to be just an average guy trying to do the right thing; it's interesting to note that though he is descended from the Kryptonian equivalent of aristocracy (his father is one of his home planet's greatest scientists), on Earth he is raised on a farm and becomes a reporter, and a rather put-upon one at that. It is clear that the character never sees himself as better than the rest of humanity, but rather places himself in humanity's service; thus his chosen name, Superman, is a bit of a misnomer. Arguably, when the character was created, the word "super" was commonly used to mean something really good, not necessarily superior; perhaps he might just as well have been called Zing-Man or Pep-Man. Or possibly Vitaman.

As to whether or not his persona would work today, I feel it has remained essentially unchanged since the 1950s, though he is understandably a bit more politically correct nowadays. He is still depicted as a thoroughly decent and incorruptible human being, though he is clearly less agressive than he was back in the 30s; famously, in his first adventure, he thrashes a wife-beater, yelling "You're not fighting a woman now!" In the same story, he wrests a gun from a woman with a rather Bogartian move ("You little vixen!") and tortures a man to get information out of him. He wouldn't do that sort of thing nowadays, but then, he wouldn't have done it by the 1950s, either.

As a European (and an incurable old leftist), I do feel that Superman is often identified with American imperialism, and I sometimes resent his implicit nationalism -- "Truth, Justice and the American Way"? Why not "Truth, Justice, and the Rights of Man", or "Truth, Justice and Habeas Corpus"? Nevertheless, I don't think one can really find anything insidious or sinister about him, though I suppose if you look hard enough, hey, you can always find some dirt.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Sorry for rambling on. Now watch everybody deconstruct everything I said and make me look like a halfwit.
Logged

Between the revolution and the firing-squad, there is always time for a glass of champagne.
NotSuper
Action Ace
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 512



« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2006, 06:50:24 PM »

Personality, I think it makes no sense to refer to Superman (especially the Golden Age Superman) as a fascist. He's not some omnipresent Big Brother that wants to control everyone--he wants to do the right thing.

The current Superman really isn't political in any large sense. He tries to do the right thing and has his own code that he won't easily break. Some would accuse him of defending the status quo, but as we saw in Birthright, that isn't the case.

The Golden Age Superman actually seemed kind of left-wing to me. He was a hero to the working class (proletariat), distrusted businessmen, wasn't in favor of the status quo, and was against any politician that wanted to use people for their own selfish needs. Of course, he was much more unilateral and uncompromising than a leftist today, but things were different back then.

People often say (incorrectly) that Green Arrow was the first super-hero to develop a social conscience. The truth is that the first and greatest super-hero (Superman) was the first to develop a social conscience.
Logged

Many people want others to accept their opinions as fact. If enough people accept them as fact then it gives the initial person or persons a feeling of power. This is why people will constantly talk about something they hate—they want others to feel the same way. It matters to them that others perceive things the same way that they do.
MatterEaterLad
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1389


Silver Age Surfer


WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2006, 07:56:32 PM »

And unlike Ollie, early Superman didn't just talk it to death... Cool
Logged
Super Monkey
Super
League of Supermen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3435



WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2006, 10:25:17 PM »

Let's look at the word fascist and what it means:

fascist:
An advocate or adherent of fascism

fascism:

NOUN: 1. often Fascism a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government. 2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.  

Now really who in their right mind would describe Superman like that?
Logged

"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
- Elliot S! Maggin
Gangbuster
Superman Squad
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 589



« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2006, 10:49:14 PM »

I'm going to simply name the Fourteen Principles of Fascism that have popped up on the Internet, line by line, and then state how each applies to Superman before 1960.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Yes, Superman qualifies. You could argue the extent to which this was true, but Superman after Pearl Harbor was a nationalist. You can see the change in the Fleischer cartoons, and in the comics around that time. The line from the Adventures of Superman TV show was "Truth, Justice, and the American Way."

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Absolutely not. In the Superman Radio Show, Superman exposed and combatted the KKK. In the 1940 Look Magazine story "Superman ends the War" even showed Superman hauling Hitler and Stalin to Geneva and found guilty of crimes against humanity...this before US involvement in the war.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

No. Other than the "Jap" comments that happened, Superman was portrayed during this time as the "champion of the oppressed." Superman often defended the very scapegoats that fascists...well, scapegoated.

4. Supremacy of the Military

No. As stated earlier, in "Superman Ends the War" he took Hitler and Stalin to Geneva for "History's Greatest Crime- Unprovoked aggression against defenseless countries."

5. Rampant Sexism

Superman worked alongside Lois Lane at the Daily Planet, never insisting that she stay at home and wash the dishes. On the contrary, he was quite intrigued with her.

6. Controlled Mass Media

Well, Superman did conquer the media, I'll give him that. Smiley And even in his stories, he had a lot of control over the workings of the Daily Planet/ Daily Star... fascist!

7. Obsession with National Security

Only in the WWII period, where I'll again point out that he fought against fascists.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Nope. Though Superman was a product of the values of his Jewish creators, his Jewishness was never brought up. He did encounter Santa Claus in 1941, but St. Nicholas is hardly a shining example of anything relating to Christianity.

9. Corporate Power is Protected

No! A product of the Depression, Superman put corporatists in jail.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

No evidence of this. Most early Superman stories involved him helping "the oppressed."

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Superman stories were a very intellectual piece of art....and the most recognized science fiction story to ever come from the U.S. While many of his early foes were scientists, that is because they were respected enough to present real challenges to Superman's abilities.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

I'll give you that one.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Nope, he fought it. This was the Great Depression, after all.

14. Fraudulent Elections

I'm not sure if Superman was ever directly involved in helping a President until President Kennedy...however, he never supported fraudulent elections, or any type of fraud at all.

So, Superman is 3/14 fascist, if you count that joke about his media job. More often, he actually fought against fascists.
Logged

"Trying to capture my wife, eh? That makes me SUPER-MAD!"

-"Superman", 1960

MatterEaterLad
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1389


Silver Age Surfer


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2006, 10:56:21 PM »

I think you can argue the "nationalism" as well...pride in and working for the interests of a nation does not mean "super"imposing a sense of "super"iority... Cool
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

CURRENT FORUM

Archives: OLD FORUM  -  DCMB  -  KAL-L
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM
Entrance ·  Origin ·  K-Metal ·  The Living Legend ·  About the Comics ·  Novels ·  Encyclopaedia ·  The Screen ·  Costumes ·  Read Comics Online ·  Trophy Room ·  Creators ·  ES!M ·  Fans ·  Multimedia ·  Community ·  Supply Depot ·  Gift Shop ·  Guest Book ·  Contact & Credits ·  Links ·  Coming Attractions ·  Free E-mail ·  Forum

Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster
The LIVING LEGENDS of SUPERMAN! Adventures of Superman Volume 1!
Return to SUPERMAN THROUGH THE AGES!
The Complete Supply Depot for all your Superman needs!