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Author Topic: THIS is Superman!  (Read 13062 times)
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2006, 08:26:48 PM »

Wouldn't the Golden Age Spectre also qualify, I haven't read enough to know if he killed...

I wonder about the emergence of the "anti-hero"...I remember reading the Denny O'Neil Green Lantern/Green Arrow series and thinking "I'm a kid, I don't know enough about social issues and discord to have a definite opinion, is this what the WRITER is interested in?"
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NotSuper
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2006, 08:30:02 PM »

Quote from: "MatterEaterLad"
Wouldn't the Golden Age Spectre also qualify, I haven't read enough to know if he killed...

I'd classify EVERY version of the Spectre as an anti-hero (except for maybe the Hal version, which wasn't a good idea).
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Many people want others to accept their opinions as fact. If enough people accept them as fact then it gives the initial person or persons a feeling of power. This is why people will constantly talk about something they hate—they want others to feel the same way. It matters to them that others perceive things the same way that they do.
Defender
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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2006, 10:27:26 PM »

That's one of the things that has so intrigued me about Jerry Siegel's creations and how they've morphed and evolved over the years. Superman has become a very 'New Testament' kind of character, exemplifying the hope that might could be used for right, that compassion as a force can be more powerful than violence. Sure, he may have to get into a brawl with the odd bruiser of the month, but fundamentally the first thing Superman will want to do is talk to the opponent and try to reason with him. That's why I'd like to think the villains of the DCU tend to respect Superman however grudgingly; the guy may come down hard on you at times, but he's a straight-shooter who'll at least hear you out.

 The Spectre these days has become very, very 'Old Testament'. You break the law, you do anything to harm the innocent and you are going to hurt for it. The Spectre in his incarnation as the Wrath of God has become an aspect of primal justice, the current incarnation of the 'eye for an eye' philosophy also espoused in the actions of more violent protagonists (I hesitate to call them heroes) such as Wolverine or the Punisher. The Spectre's actions in dealing out divine(?) justice and retribution are brutal and oftentimes deadly.

 The Spectre has considerable power with which to punish the guilty, but he has no real freedom either. He's the Wrath of God; essentially a form of sentient software designed for one purpose only: punish the guilty. Superman is a man gifted with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men, raised by loving parents and taught to believe in a world where truth, justice, and the ideals behind the American way of life are goals to hope for and rules to live by. Superman isn't 'born good' as was postulated in Denny O'Neils godawful Green Lantern novel. His DNA hasn't hard-wired him in the same way the Spectre's creation by God/The Source/The Voice has. He chooses the right thing. In a battle against Superman, the Spectre is essentially powerless. The only dent in Superman's moral armor Post-Crisis might be the execution of the Kryptonian Super-Criminals from the Pocket Universe, but given the jumbled state of current Superman continuity I doubt it even applies anymore.

 In a contest of power between Superman and the Spectre, there's no question. Superman is powerful, yes, but he's mortal. He'd fare no better against the Spectre than he would in a prolonged bout with Captain Marvel. But the Spectre cannot defeat Superman because Superman is not the guilty. The Spectre couldn't attack Superman, and even if he did, he'd be destroying himself by defying the fundamental underlying rule of his own existence. It'd be like Kirk asking an evil computer to define love on Star Trek. It'd lead to one serious bang.

 Mind you, the Spectre and Superman have fought (in the pages of the Spectre, in the Day of Judgement crossover, etc.) but I believe that to be due more to outside influence or the desires of the Spectre-force's host rather than the entity itself. Might poke a few holes in my above theory, but I think that it's kind of a grey area really.

 I love this kinda stuff, don't you?  Cheesy

 -Def.
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2006, 01:05:14 AM »

That is an interesting take...

But is this how the Spectre originated, or what he has become?  And if his power is limited the vengeance against a wrong, is it more limited than the magic of someone like Dr. Fate?
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Klar Ken T5477
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2006, 03:07:52 AM »

Spectre - an anti hero? Hero - the guy's a spook - ghost- SPECTER! Beyond good and evil and does what he's told.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2006, 04:30:20 PM »

Quote from: "Al Shroeder"
He would have nothing but contempt for the hot-tempered and deadly Wolverine, and has nothing but contempt for Lobo. Brutality is a sign of someone's weakness to him---not their strength.


Superman probably would have a problem with someone like Wolverine that's very results-oriented and has a killer instinct.

Although it's all too easy to say, "Superman wouldn't approve of Wolverine," who is a fish in a barrel target; does anybody STILL like Wolverine anymore? Did anyone EVER really like him? Wolverine-burnout isn't a new phenomenon; I have some of the Claremont 70s X-Men, and even there, the letters columns had almost universal condemnation for our pal Logan.

It's much harder to say "Superman wouldn't approve of Hawkeye." True, Superman probably wouldn't, but...somehow that feels different. Because I *like* Hawkeye, as do a lot of other people.

Quote from: "Al Shroeder"
Trying to impress Superman with power is like trying to show the heavyweight champion of the world YOUR boxing prowess. You can't compete.


I don't know if I'd agree with this characterization...Superman always valued and respected Elongated Man, for example, whose power is not terribly impressive.
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alschroeder
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2006, 10:29:14 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"

It's much harder to say "Superman wouldn't approve of Hawkeye." True, Superman probably wouldn't, but...somehow that feels different. Because I *like* Hawkeye, as do a lot of other people.


Oh, I think he'd like Hawkeye---Hawkeye wasn't a killer, and he was skilled, to boot. He wouldn't probably get along with Hawkeye's PERSONALITY, Hawkeye being relatively hot-tempered and brash,  but he'd probably respect the man.

Quote


I don't know if I'd agree with this characterization...Superman always valued and respected Elongated Man, for example, whose power is not terribly impressive.


Right. But El-Man is also a skilled detective; does Superman particularly value Ralph's stretchiness---or his skill? I'd argue his skill. ---Al
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Al Schroeder III, former letterhack (met his wife through Julie Schwartz' lettercolumns) of MINDMISTRESS http://mindmistress.comicgenesis.com---think the superhero genre is mined out? Think there are no new superhero ideas?

Think again.
laurel
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2006, 04:01:55 AM »

Superman respects Mater-eater Lad's power :roll:
And Porcupine Pete's.
And Triplicate Girl's.
Bouncing boy and that stone guy, I forget his name....
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