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Author Topic: Ideas by Elliot S! Maggin that weren't that great  (Read 17751 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2006, 01:29:32 AM »

Quote from: "Great Rao"
Julian, I don't know quite how to break this to you after such an admirable rant - the Kryp and Tonn story was not written by ES!M but was in fact written by your favorite Superman writer...  Cary Bates!

I know what you mean about other writers ignoring Maggin's ideas, though.  Superwoman and Miracle Monday would both serve as examples of what you describe, except that they were good ideas.

I like most everything else that Maggin wrote in the 1980s too - especially Sword of Superman and all the God tie-in stuff that he did.  But to me most of his 1970s stories (with a few incredible exceptions) are pretty forgettable.

S!


My mistake; I was going by memories of a cousin's comics collection here.

I was not aware this story was hosted on this site. And in a Roshomon-esque twist, it's VERY different than I remember it.

It really is unfortunate, however, that the concept of MIRACLE MONDAY was not explored further. Levitz or Tom Peyer could have done something with the idea in either Legion or in the 90s HOURMAN book, but chalk it up to another missed opportunity.

It also really says something that in CRISIS, when everybody and the Golden Age version of their brother shows up (heck, even Raven, who had disappeared as a result of events in TITANS, was MENTIONED and shown on a monitor screen) that Superwoman did not even so much as appear in the background. Superwoman, Ultraa the Multi-Alien, and Space Cabbie - all were left out of CRISIS; coincidence, or conspiracy? HMMMM....

Quote from: "Dylan Clearbrook"
The question only becomes WHEN the colonization took place and then what occurred afterward. I was always under the impression that the colonization took place in the deep past and not under the most friendly of circumstances  Science fiction is full of stories with a similar theme. Advanced culture colonizes world, tragedy strikes, with no technological base to maintain the current standard....regression takes place (most famous example being Anne McCaffery's Pern Series). the amount of regression depending on the severity of the tragedy.

As to the lead vs Kryptonite....again, depends on when the colonization took place. Where the Daxamites alergic to lead at the time? Or was that something that developed later, after the Split?


All this is precisely why I think it was a lousy idea, no matter who came up with it (and the idea that it's my boyfriend Cary Bates that wrote this, well, it just smarts[/i).

Bates didn't think it through. It didn't answer any questions, it just brought up more, and it clouded the waters of the Superman story.

If Bates had told a story where the inhabitants of Krypton, Daxam, Thoron, the Andromedan Race of Karb-Brak, New Genesis, etc. were all seeded from a single space race (possibly a task performed by the Guardians) now THIS would be an interesting idea and account for why these beings have similar powers and appearance - provided certain questions were answered, like for instance, why Daxamites have different weaknesses, and so forth. It would be a great idea, because it gives a connection between these diverse civilizations, and involve the Guardians in the Superman Mythos.

But Cary Bates didn't tell this story. It tore down previous assumptions about life on Krypton, but the thing is, it didn't replace it with anything.
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Great Rao
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2006, 02:11:18 AM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
It also really says something that in CRISIS, when everybody and the Golden Age version of their brother shows up (heck, even Raven, who had disappeared as a result of events in TITANS, was MENTIONED and shown on a monitor screen) that Superwoman did not even so much as appear in the background. Superwoman, Ultraa the Multi-Alien, and Space Cabbie - all were left out of CRISIS; coincidence, or conspiracy? HMMMM....

I think it just shows that none of the other writers at DC ever read anything that Elliot ever wrote.  Same thing with his bestselling novels - when they came out, he never even heard a peep from anyone at DC about them (ref).

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
If Bates had told a story where the inhabitants of Krypton, Daxam, Thoron, the Andromedan Race of Karb-Brak, New Genesis, etc. were all seeded from a single space race (possibly a task performed by the Guardians) now THIS would be an interesting idea and account for why these beings have similar powers and appearance - provided certain questions were answered, like for instance, why Daxamites have different weaknesses, and so forth. It would be a great idea, because it gives a connection between these diverse civilizations, and involve the Guardians in the Superman Mythos.

But Cary Bates didn't tell this story.

More backstory material for epic tales that should have been told, but never had the chance to because of Crisis.

Quote
It tore down previous assumptions about life on Krypton, but the thing is, it didn't replace it with anything.

Didn't replace it with anything?

What's all this?  Chopped liver?  And there were a lot more Krypton Tales where those came from!

I also don't see what previous assumptions it tore down.  

S!
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2006, 02:27:35 AM »

Quote
think it just shows that none of the other writers at DC ever read anything that Elliot ever wrote.


In fact I belive that Alan Moore was the only person ever to use Superwoman other than Maggin. (She had a cameo in What ever Happen...)
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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2006, 02:32:20 AM »

Well, I guess the previous assumption was that Krypton had a unique history, flora, fauna etc...

I wonder if its a question of those who think more in terms of panspermia or a separate origin of similar properties in the universe given similar circumstances...to carry that out to comics may be too much, but its interesting...personally I liked that Kryptonians and Daxamites had a similar but seperate origin...
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Klar Ken T5477
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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2006, 04:07:05 AM »

I wonder how evolution produced those thought beasts with those yv monitors on their heads which showed what they were thinking about -- which was eatting you!

Shame they never thought about rabbit ears. Wink
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dto
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2006, 06:52:08 AM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"

In fact I belive that Alan Moore was the only person ever to use Superwoman other than Maggin. (She had a cameo in What ever Happen...)


And there's an inherent continuity contradiction in Superwoman's appearance in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" -- Kristin Wells was supposed to be a descendant of Jimmy Olsen, who DIED in this story.  Since it was never mentioned that Jimmy ever had offspring, how could Kristin even exist?  

Superwoman Kristin Wells also appears as a "Hypertime Ghost" in "The Kingdom: Planet Krypton" -- in fact, she and Batwoman Kathy Kane are very prominently depicted...

Hmm...

"Superwoman / Batwoman, Hypertime's Finest"?  :shock:

That would be an intriguing matchup, though since both characters had been portrayed as somewhat ditzy in the past I can also see many Superman and Batman fans (ESPECIALLY the latter) visibly cringing at the very thought.   :wink:
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2006, 08:00:11 AM »

Quote from: "Great Rao"
Didn't replace it with anything?

What's all this?  Chopped liver?  And there were a lot more Krypton Tales where those came from!


As good as some of those are (especially WORLD OF KRYPTON) none of them make use or expand on the Bates "space explorers settled Krypton" story. In fact, looking them over, only WORLD OF KRYPTON does, but as a throwaway line that can either considered to be 1) referencing Bates's story, or 2) laughing at the idea, but in either case not providing definite confirmation.

Quote from: "Great Rao"
I also don't see what previous assumptions it tore down.  


It tore down the default assumption that Kryptonians (I do so love the 30s-40s term "Kryptonites," to refer to Kryptonians) evolved on their own planet, and this is very significant because it is believed to be developing in Krypton's environment that gives Superman his powers. If Kryptonians are not originally from Krypton, it becomes much less clear just WHY it is that Kryptonians have powers.

It tears down the idea that Kryptonians generally did not have space travel, because it was present at the beginning of Krypton history (which is a pretty big problem; the reason the destruction of Krypton was as awful as it was is because Kryptonians weren't generally scattered over the universe).
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2006, 06:12:17 PM »

The story of Kryp and Tonn was previously discussed here.

Elliot didn't invent Kryp and Tonn, but he did mention "two stranded space wanderers" as he recounted the history of Krypton in the first few paragraphs of Last Son of Krypton.
Quote from: "ES!M in LSoK Chapter 1"
Since two stranded space wanderers found each other on the big red planet ten thousand star orbits before, the world had been in its death throes.

Those paragraphs also explain how the humans became "tuned-up humans" over the next 10,000 years (approximately 15,000 Earth years). The "tune-up" was what put the "super" into Superman.
Quote from: "ES!M in LSoK Chapter 1"
Finally, when the suffering was near an end, when subsistence on resources of a near-depleted planet became possible, the race of humankind began to spread north and south from the relatively low-gravity equatorial regions, and the humans began to build.

I'm not a biologist, so I don't know whether natural selection could produce such physiological changes in that period. I think Elliot may have understated the period. After all, the Kryptonian calendar was in the year 9998 when Kal-El was born. Was the basis of the calendar ever established? Was it from Erok-El's reign as the first Bethgar of Urrika? The Krypton Chronicles seemed to establish that as the start of Kryptonian history. That still leaves a a huge chunk of pre-history.

The story of "Kryp" and "Tonn" may be a legend, used to explain this pre-history. The early version of the legend may have been similar to the Greek myths about the creation of humans. Over the centuries, the legend was embellished. The "Kryp" and "Tonn" version includes a addition from Krypton's "space age", since it refers to space-travel and astronauts. It is also possible that the story was not a legend at all, but was an original story by Du-Vor.
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