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Author Topic: Infinite Crisis #7 Why?!  (Read 19380 times)
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Gangbuster
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2006, 04:03:20 AM »

Quote from: "Great Rao"
Quote from: "DoctorZero"
Thus ends the dream of the Multiverse/Earth 2 returning.

They teased us with it for Zero Hour; they teased us with it for Kingdom; and they teased us with it for Infinite Crisis.  They'll probably try to tease us again for the next big X-over, but I'm not buying it.  I'm tired of seeing everything destroyed ad-infinitum.  IC pretty much destroyed whatever faith I had left in DC and soured my taste for comics in general.  If this is what it all comes to, then there was no point to the last 70 years.  It seems that the folks at DC can do a pretty good job of destruction and of tearing everything down, but I don't see any creation or originality or respect for the readers or even respect for their own characters.
S!


Earth-1 still lives, on television. I'm watching an episode of The Flash (with Barry Allen) right now. Two facts remain: Crisis on Infinite Earths has had very little bearing on TV shows, and DVDs of the same shows are, for their entertainment value, less expensive than comics.

When you can get 18 episodes of Superman: The Animated series for 20 dollars, or one comic for 3, the choice is then obvious. On tv, Barry Allen still lives. Superman was a founding member of the Justice League, and spent his formative years in the Legion of Superheroes. The story of Earth-1 is still being written...forget the comics!*



*except, of course, All-Star Superman
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ShinDangaioh
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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2006, 07:22:35 AM »

Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"
Quote from: "Great Rao"
Quote from: "DoctorZero"
Thus ends the dream of the Multiverse/Earth 2 returning.

They teased us with it for Zero Hour; they teased us with it for Kingdom; and they teased us with it for Infinite Crisis.  They'll probably try to tease us again for the next big X-over, but I'm not buying it.  I'm tired of seeing everything destroyed ad-infinitum.  IC pretty much destroyed whatever faith I had left in DC and soured my taste for comics in general.  If this is what it all comes to, then there was no point to the last 70 years.  It seems that the folks at DC can do a pretty good job of destruction and of tearing everything down, but I don't see any creation or originality or respect for the readers or even respect for their own characters.
S!


Earth-1 still lives, on television. I'm watching an episode of The Flash (with Barry Allen) right now. Two facts remain: Crisis on Infinite Earths has had very little bearing on TV shows, and DVDs of the same shows are, for their entertainment value, less expensive than comics.

When you can get 18 episodes of Superman: The Animated series for 20 dollars, or one comic for 3, the choice is then obvious. On tv, Barry Allen still lives. Superman was a founding member of the Justice League, and spent his formative years in the Legion of Superheroes. The story of Earth-1 is still being written...forget the comics!*



*except, of course, All-Star Superman


Add in the two fanfic sites, Faux DC and Five Earths Project  which you can read pretty much for free(internet connection and computer costs being the price you pay)

There are also other fanfic sites such as Continum Worlds that are also out there.

BTW you can pick up the original Superman cartoon for about $10 and it has 17 episodes on it.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2006, 03:05:50 PM »

I recently just got INFINITE CRISIS #7, and I must say, overall I was pleased - it was like the last three pages of a really good story...for nearly an entire issue.

AS I HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE ISSUE, I thus am entitled to an opinion on it. (take note, Nightwing and Super Monkey!)

High points of the issue:

Usually when they have crowd scenes of Green Lanterns, they usually call on the same two or three guys over and over. Tomar-Re must be the Paris Hilton of Green Lanterns: always showing up when there's a party. But at least in this splash page, there are tons of great GLs that don't usually make the scene: for instance, there was the moustachioed lemon-skinned Green Lantern from the alien world that was perpetually in the Middle Ages. Amazing how knowledgeable Geoff Johns is about the Lantern Corps - is the sludge-yeast creature the Mike W. Barr creation Eddore?

When Wonder Woman's invisible jet showed up ever so subtly - it was there all along - it showed just how downright cool an invisible jet can be.

Is that the Chinese staff used by the Green Lantern from that Elseworlds that washed up on that beach? What an idea - incorporating it into the mainstream DCU!

Well, the arc covering the characters of Wonder Woman and Batman are over: Wonder Woman has learned the err of her ways, and Batman's characterization is fundamentally altered away from his 1990s "hunchback" grotesquery: he has admitted he is able to have allies and refuses to go at things alone anymore. And was that a smile I saw him crack at the end there?

Speaking of another character whose arc appears to have been greatly advanced by this story, we come to Bart Allen. Previously, I denounced him as an irritating snot when he first appeared; thanks to Geoff Johns, he gained intelligence and maturity. Now he looks like an honestly worthy heir to the Flash. I wouldn't count Wally out right away, thoughl considering the nature of Wally's disappearance, we will almost assuredly see him again.

A few complaints:

Has Amazo suddenly become the biggest paper tiger in the entire DC Universe? He was vanquished to scrap metal in a PANEL. Granted, this series has a brisk pace, nonetheless, in Alan Davis's THE NAIL, Amazo was beat in a page and a half. In "Rock of Ages," Amazo was taken down by computer viruses before the fight even began. Amazo, potentially one of the most terrifying villains in the DC Universe, has been reduced to a wimp! This is no single writer's fault, but Amazo needs desperately the Catman treatment, stat. Are you listening, Gail Simone?

I've been wondering how Superman would lose his powers. Surely there is a better explanation than just "he flew through a Kryptonite cloud." HINT: Fly AROUND the Kryptonite cloud.

Quote from: "ShinDangioh"
Can I convince you to head over to Heroic Publishing and try Flare out?

Issue 33 had a supervillian shark, squidoids, invading space-gorrilia, and dinosuars in the main feature. and the back up stoy with Sparkplug was well written too.


Remember that post I made a while back about how aggrivating it is that there seems to be nearly the same superhero universe over and over, without any innovation - always with World War II as the flashpoint and point of origination, tiresome legacy characters, and so forth? FLARE is "Exhibit A." The Silver Age wasn't great because it was based on dinosaurs and giant apes - it was based on innovation, it was based on tight plotting. A nostalgic trotting out of World War II heroines, dinosaurs and giant apes does not a good comic make.

Someone somewhere else compared FLARE to the brilliant MONKEYMAN AND O'BRIEN. This is a bit like comparing Fabian to Elvis. Not the least of which because MONKEYMAN had the hilariously appropriately named genius Art Adams behind it. Not the least because MONKEYMAN was something never seen before: a heroic adventure series with superheroic and b-movie elements whose closest cousin was the horror detective series HELLBOY. FLARE on the other hand, is yet another SUPREME or ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, except it doesn't have a genius like Alan Moore or Grant Morrison and lacks the sense of humor these works have, which means it essentially just rehashes cliches (see also: the Mark Waid FLASH). Whether it is Silver Age cliches like space gorillas or modern age cliches like gritty spy plots, a cliche is a cliche.

This is why low budget horror movies about killer urinals that are IN ON THEIR OWN JOKE will never truly be as charming or as creative as something unaware of itself like THEY SAVED HITLER'S BRAIN and THE TERROR OF TINY TOWN (an all midget musical western) they they are desperately trying to resemble and simultaneously parody in an ironic way.

The only recent thing I've read lately that even remotely captures the spirit of the Silver Age is our own Al Schroeder III's MINDMISTRESS web comic. Not because Al brings out Dinosaurs, but because he creates legitimately new ideas drawn from his wide knowledge. In the words of Basho, it doesn't try to duplicate the Masters - it merely seeks what they sought. (Though the Unicorn Jelly crossover was one I could take or leave - what next, Mind Mistress meets Michael Jackson, while we're doing crossovers with repulsive people?)

Quote from: "Superman of America"
I know this won't be the popular opinion but I agree with most of the changes to Alexander & SBP. Both of them were trapped for years in a pocket dimension for years cut off from the contact of otheres. Yes, Superman 2 & Lois Kent were also there but the age gap was too big. Instead of a closed off prison the foursome should've travelled the universe or at least different dimensions. Alexander & Prime would've had experiences and been allowed to grow up.


Very well put.

It was sort of like how the Englehart Deadshot wildly differed in characterization from the Finger Deadshot - the reason his characterization was radically altered was because an extensive amount of time occurred in the interim that transformed their personality and modus operandi - this was seen in the Wolfman-penned INFINITE CRISIS SECRET FILES.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again: I absolutely don't grasp the sudden sense of loss with Superboy Prime. He was a character created for CRISIS that didn't survive the CRISIS - a "wedding dress" character just like the Anti-Monitor that was put on and discarded. Emphasizing his importance is really rewriting history, and there's no point in getting all worked up about him now. The fact the writers were able to get mileage out of him as a fairly chilling and effective villain is a very interesting creative choice, and indeed, logical considering what took place in the Paradise Dimension.

Actually, Superboy-Prime works better as a villain than as a hero in some ways. For one thing, his overwhelming power level makes him a truly terrifying adversary. The guy took on at least a few hundred Green Lanterns and two Supermen and killed six Lanterns at once. "You don't know cold. Cold is being the only survivor of an earth eliminated from history." Suddenly, the events of the original CRISIS are used to give his backstory a degree of poignancy. The purpose of backstory in villains is to explain why they're so twisted and antisocial, and this certainly qualifies.

Quote from: "Kuuga"
It's obvious that the entire thing was concocted as not only this years cheap sales gimmick but also as a lightly veiled expression of hate and disgust to any and all who have expressed a desire to move away from this neverending grimschlock.


Did you even read the miniseries at all?

Far be it for Yours Truly to interrupt someone pissing and moaning, but this criticism is totally off the wall. It's a bit like calling Kareem Abdul Jabaar "a very short man."

A miniseries that featured STANLEY AND HIS MONSTER in a guest-star role, which has the Middle Ages yellow Green Lantern prominent in a crowd shot, which had an appearance by a lightning monster from a 1950s issue of TOMMY TOMORROW...well, it may be many things, but it certainly is not reflecting a passive-aggressive distaste for fans of DC history.

The series killed off the Matrix Supergirl and the dark, cheesy new Batgirl that doesn't talk.  They got rid of the new Batgirl, even though her book was selling. The editorial vision is "New Silver Age." They're creating a new Justice League that is going to be reminiscent of the Englehart sattelite era. In a million ways, INFINITE CRISIS is supposed to be a cohesive new DC of a kind we ought to find familiar.

To quote Russell Crowe: "Are you not entertained?"

This thing had STANLEY AND HIS MONSTER for the love of Moke. This book is aimed at us - fans who believe history should be used to influence present characterizations. But all everyone seems to be doing is whining and nitpicking about a character we didn't care about two years ago, but now we pretend to, now that he's getting some use for a change.

THIS is why writers don't do things like bring back Hal Jordan very often - because there's just no pleasing you people.

And say what you like about Iron Age fans, at least they READ the books. I haven't read a single comment on this thread in all - jeez, what is it now, seven pages? Not a single comment that would give the slightest indication anyone apart from myself actually read the series they're criticising. Now, why is this important?

Remember the balls-to-the-wall reaction that fans gave when they heard Spock was going to die? Why isn't there any lingering bitterness to this day about the Death of Spock? The reason is the overwhelming reaction was "oh, well I didn't know you were going to do it like THAT."

I am not saying that Spock's death in Wrath of Khan and INFINITE CRISIS are equivalent at least in all ways. I am, however, saying that the reason that criticism of Wrath of Khan and the Death of Spock fizzled into nothingness was because PEOPLE WENT TO SEE THE MOVIE.

I for one, was deeply concerned when some loudmouth blabbed to me about the death of the Freedom Fighters. Someone even listed the death of Phantom Lady as looking very mysoginistic, and I agreed with their reasoning - forgetting for the moment that if you haven't read something it looks however you think it looks. However, after actually reading the death of the Freedom Fighters, I was actually moved. Johns has an amazing ability to get me to like a character and then kill them. Uncle Sam never felt more dramatic or dynamic than he did in the caption boxes by Geoff Johns that described him as someone that wrestled Paul Bunyan and taught Johnny Appleseed how to plant.

Many people said about Spock's death, "oh, I didn't know they were going to do it THAT way." And that was my reaction to the Freedom Fighters: "I didn't know they were going to do it that way."
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2006, 04:43:21 PM »

I mean, jeez, Wonder Woman again is a founder of the JLA. Batman caught Joe Chill but continued to protect Gotham City anyway. Superman had a career as Superboy.

My point is this, 1) yes, there IS change from the status quo (though to be fair, it lacks the single BIG change that the original Crisis had, namely the merging of all the earths) and 2) it is a change to a ground more consistent with these characters' histories. So I don't want to hear any nonsense about DC "throwing their history away" (I'm looking squarely at you here, Great Rao).

And to everyone that thought the multiverse would return come IC and are disappointed by its absence...I feel your pain, the multiverse was a great idea and they shouldn't have scrapped it. But I don't exactly remember that being a "campaign promise" here. Geoff Johns can't be faulted for not delivering on a promise he never made. They DID promise, though, to create a world with heroic heroes, and thus far, they've fulfilled their promise. Batman's cracked a smile and isn't a jerk anymore. Superman...well, we're all seeing the great stuff Busiek and Geoff Johns are doing in his title.

And really, to everyone out there whining about the death of Earth-2 Superman: first, I have to give major props to Geoff Johns for bringing back the character at all. Second, remember the whole "it's a paradise of love" thing in the original CRISIS? That was exactly the same as dying. Let's not all pretend we all were thinking of it as a place Kal-L could be brought back from. Third, did at any point Earth-2 Superman behave out of character? It wasn't like Hal Jordan becoming a villain, here. Earth-2 Superman was confused for a moment in a very natural way, but in the end he showed his true colors and saved the earth. He behaved consistently with how we have known the character to behave, and that's more than most receive; note the mistreatment Beetle suffered under Keith Giffen back in '86. And despite the now-proven totally wrong, histrionic warnings of a few among you who shall remain nameless but whose name rhymes with "Bitewing," Earth-2 Superman never turned evil. He was never a mastermind behind the events. He and the other characters had a disagreement but when the chips were down, Kal-L does what any Superman does.

Fourth, the door isn't 100% closed. Superman's last words were "it's not going to end. It's never going to end for people like us." (Something I KNOW, by the way, because I READ THE ISSUE.) Now, this wasn't exactly taking Power Girl by the head, doing a Vulcan Mind Meld while saying "Remember," but if that wasn't telegraphing a possible return, I don't know what is. And finally, the whole "Lois" thing where he is kissing her as a giant silouette in space...well, that's just a very moving image.

Quote from: "Shin Dangaioh"
Add in the two fanfic sites, Faux DC and Five Earths Project which you can read pretty much for free(internet connection and computer costs being the price you pay)

There are also other fanfic sites such as Continum Worlds that are also out there.


We've got Kurt Busiek writing SUPERMAN. We've got Morrison on Batman. Steve Englehart is going to do another Batman miniseries. Geoff Johns is writing...well, a bunch of titles. All these things are going on...and you're pointing to a FANFIC site as an alternative to DC Comics? That's like going to a tribe deep in the Amazon, and telling them that "these knives will work much better than the machine guns you have now."

Insert your own joke from the choices, here:

( "Wow, so THAT'S what Chuck Austen is doing with his time now!" )

( "We've got Kurt Busiek on ACTION COMICS...but on the other hand, we've got Darren Madigan on A SELF-INSERTION SAVES THE UNIVERSE. Decisions, decisions..." )

( "Fanfiction: producing LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES writers since 1986!" )

( Left blank for your own joke )
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Kal's Pal
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« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2006, 05:25:42 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
The fact the writers were able to get mileage out of him as a fairly chilling and effective villain is a very interesting creative choice, and indeed, logical considering what took place in the Paradise Dimension.


Well Julian, your very interesting and well-executed opinion on IC has encouraged me, (even if I don't completely agree with you), to put forward some thoughts on the subject!

Yes, I would agree that the Secret Files Infinite Crisis was well done, in terms of showing the progression of Alexander and SP to the masterminds behind the events of the second Crisis. But what was emphasised above anything (no matter what their actions were to be in the mini itself) was that the reader was to feel sympathy for the two in what made them want to do what they did. Of course, SP lost his world, but the only life Alexander has ever known was fighting in the original Crisis, (I particularly liked Alex's thoughts when SP talked of kissing Laurie and what it is like, "No I don't. But I wish I did.").

So on this point, this story succeeded. Just as a personal hope as a reader, I was looking forward to some sort of redemption for the two, (considering they rightfully earned the status of heroes after the battle with the Anti-Monitor) or that Superboy-Prime's wish would be granted by returning to his world.

And yes, it is inaccurate to say Kal-L was a villain, merely misguided by Alexander's mainipulations and Lois' illness. It is a deliberate ploy by Johns to throw the reader, but we see that Kal's heroic nature and the need to help others triumphed, even as early as #3 in the conversation with Bruce about Dick Grayson.

But on Kal-L, I do take issue with his death as it occured in the series, (not the fact he was killed off, which could have been done any number of ways), and the graphic nature of the scene itself, in which the first superhero was reduced to being powerless and beaten to death by a pyschotic teenager. Even one of his last lines, "Superman saved us." would to me suggest that Johns is trying to put forward the idea that the heroics and idealism of Kal-L is of little worth in these more cynical times. Though his death scene, ("Lois."), was quite well done and moving, particularly with the art. (And most of all #7 had some fine examples of bad art, such as the double-spread of pages 2 and 3, and as such, it was good creative decision to have Perez on board for some pivotal scenes).

In contrast, as a fan of Kon-El, I thought his sacrfice to thwart Alex's plans was really well done and fitting to the character. (Especially his poignant last words to Cassie, in which he said "lost his way", and that ironically he had found himself again only at his death).

As a whole Infinite Crisis had it's moments - some of the fantastic -  particularly in returning the Big Three to their roots and setting them up for future stories, (Clark can build on his relationship with Lois; Diana tries to re-connect with her humanity; and Bruce become more trusting with those close to him).  I just think, as a reader who enjoys the comics of all eras and not a die-hard traditionalist like many on the site seem, I think the story itself and the execution at times had it's faults. (I point to how certain major events during the events of the mini occured elsewhere, and I point to the other Specials as examples of this, for #7, the villain battle in Metropolis seems rather left-field).  

And just to note, I have read the original Crisis numerous times (a friend casually lending the collected edition to me, who was a die-hard Marvellite, and it was Crisis that got me interested in collecting Superman comics!), and I have bought the entire IC mini, and any tie-in realted to Superman. And I can't stand 90% of the fan fiction out there, as shallow and ham-fisted as most of it is.
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nightwing
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« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2006, 05:50:55 PM »

Quote
AS I HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE ISSUE, I thus am entitled to an opinion on it. (take note, Nightwing and Super Monkey!)


I hope it was worth the whopping $3.99 price tag to "earn" the right to that opinion.  

I've made an effort to restrain myself from posting much on this thread precisely *because* I haven't read the book; if you look at my posts they're usually asking questions that may come off as rhetorical (certainly smart-mouthed), but I really would like some answers from people who've read the story and understand it.  (Like how Superboy can change the circumstances of his own birth and childhood by hitting a wall and whether this banging made him a bad guy, or if he turned bad first and then changed his history, etc).  

All I need to know about this book I know from flipping through it in the store: people are decapitated, dismembered, de-brained, blinded, impaled, incinerated and beaten to death in graphic detail.  With images like that, I don't care if it's the greatest prose since the Bard himself slipped this mortal coil.  I am not about to bring imagery like that into my home because (1) I can't stomach it at my age and (2) I don't need it around my kids.  Similarly, Quentin Tarantino and Martin Scorcese may be two top-notch directors but the likes of "Pulp Fiction" and "Goodfellas" will not be in my DVD collection any time soon.  

I don't care if Stanley and his Monster eat ice cream with Sugar and Spike on Page 5.  If Pscyho Pirate's getting his eyeballs poked through his head on Page 6, I'm out.  

If that makes me an old fogey and curmudgeon, so be it.  Glad you enjoyed the book.  Me, I'm 4 bucks closer to affording Showcase Presents Superman Volume 2.
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MatterEaterLad
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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2006, 07:30:15 PM »

I suppose the criticism of not having read it is valid, but then again its possible to see enough elements that you wouldn't want to read it...

To me, the arguments could be broken into two elements...

1.  The end of the multiverse and the re-writing of characters and elements because of that...

2.  The use of extreme violence and gore, to me none of which is made more "real" or gripping by comic dialog which remains fairly abbreviated and telegraphic even in the modern age...

Sure, I'm out of it, I haven't ponied any of my own money for comics since 1971...

I can accept element 1 listed above, I actually find that the Crisis was a sweeping story, with death a part of the fight to keep universes from dying...(not a fan of the DC "no plan" for post-Crisis, however).

That's different than Superboy Prime beating Kal-L to a bloody pulp as part of his own insanity or satisfying modern Joker bloodlust by having him blow the the left half of the face of Alex off...fine if you like that, but there aren't any alternatives for super hero stories these days?  And it does get a little personally distressing because these are some characters at least in name that used to interact in a very different way...
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ShinDangaioh
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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2006, 09:17:15 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"

Quote from: "ShinDangioh"
Can I convince you to head over to Heroic Publishing and try Flare out?

Issue 33 had a supervillian shark, squidoids, invading space-gorrilia, and dinosuars in the main feature. and the back up stoy with Sparkplug was well written too.


Remember that post I made a while back about how aggrivating it is that there seems to be nearly the same superhero universe over and over, without any innovation - always with World War II as the flashpoint and point of origination, tiresome legacy characters, and so forth? FLARE is "Exhibit A." The Silver Age wasn't great because it was based on dinosaurs and giant apes - it was based on innovation, it was based on tight plotting. A nostalgic trotting out of World War II heroines, dinosaurs and giant apes does not a good comic make.


Right.  I understand what you are saying.  However, there are things that are different from a standard comic universe.

Sparkplug.  This is a girl who was raised and still believes in the Nazi ideals.  She actually was doing her best to save a person she believed to be innocent and refused to accept the truth about his role in the death camps and chewed out the goverment agents who shot and killed him for resisting arrest.  In US comics, a Nazi is always a villian.  Not this time.  Sparkplug is a heroine.  

There are a few other things that are new to the Heroic Universe, but that is the biggest one right there.

The tight plotting to the stories is there.  It's no worse or beter than a lot of other comics from yesterday or today.

As to the complaint that Flare is derivative?  Of course it is.  It was based on characters used in the 3rd edition Champions RPG as background bits.  The Champions game itself was based on the Marvel universe.

As for a super-hero comic that is really original:  A Miracle of Science.
http://www.project-apollo.net/mos/
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