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Author Topic: You guys may want to shoot me but I actually prefer Routh  (Read 14411 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 08:41:09 PM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
Yes, the cinematographer did pass away before the film was released, though I think his work on it was done. If memory serves, his name was Geoffrey Unsworth, and the film was dedicated to his memory.


In the DVD Commentary and extras for SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE, they talk about him - Margot Kidder said he was a beautiful Englishman who said things like, "prepare the camera to shoot the lady, please."  

The director commentary for this film is pretty spectacular in one respect: it's the first time Dick Donner had seen this movie in years, so he'd forgotten a lot of it! It was fun to watch him go "Oh YEAH, Margot Kidder's in this, isn't she?"

Quote from: "nightwing"
Anyway I agree it's more fun when the viewer/reader is left to connect the dots himself. Making it overt is a lot clumsier and not nearly so clever as the storytellers seem to think.


I'm not saying that Superman doesn't have similarities to mythological figures and holy men, but these similarities are incidental. That's my problem also with Morrison writing "Superman as Hercules" in ALL-STAR SUPERMAN: it's unfair to the uniqueness of one to write him as the other. Like Busiek said, if just focus on telling good stories with Superman being who he is, mythic themes suggest themselves.

Quote from: "nightwing"
It was also a bit unsettling for me as the son of a Methodist minister...I remember having an aversion even to "Thor" comics because it seemed to endorse polytheism!


Heh! Really? If THOR wasn't your bag, I wonder what you'd think of Jim Starlin's "Adam Warlock: Space Christ."

Ohhhh, boy, what is it about Marvel "cosmic" comics that makes everybody involved think their farts smell like lilacs?

(And am I the only one that noticed that the chick from Epic Comics' DREADSTAR looks EXACTLY like Scarlet from G.I. JOE?)

Quote from: "SuperMonkey"
I wouldn't read too much into it. They created the ultimate power fantasy, a strong man who could stand up to crooks and hoodlums and fight for the working class of America. A super nerd who could get any woman he liked, if he really wanted to, just by taking off his shirt.

Sure there was the whole Moses/Samson angle for his origin and powers but he wasn't suppose represent them. He was suppose represent Jerry and Joe!


The novel KAVALIER & CLAY gives a very interesting look at how the ethnicity of comics creators during the Golden Age was a significant factor that influenced their work without them noticing it.

I think you're right, though. These similarities were incidental instead of explicit, and more or less based on Jewish "themes" like exile and special identity - I doubt they were intentional, just another way people are affected by the world that produces them. But they are there, and much more invisible than the tack-hammer to the skull overtness in SUPERMAN RETURNS, where he falls in a "stained glass window" posture.

Quote from: "nightwing"
I've seen Superman compared to the Golem by commentators a lot better qualified to know than I, but (as admittedly a Christian with little insight into Jewish lore) I always thought Superman was a Jewish kid's (or maybe adult's) view of what a savior SHOULD be. One of the reasons Christ had his work cut out for him getting followers was because he arrived...the messiah foretold for centuries...as a poor carpenter preaching peace and riding into town on a donkey. I'm sure anyone who stayed up at night all those centuries telling or listening to tales of the coming messiah would have much preferred a savior who could toss the oppressor across the room, who kicked butt and took names, and just to make things even more iron-clad, wore an "S" for Savior on his tunic.

I always assumed Jerry and Joe were creating for themselves the savior history never gave them.


One Jewish song compares the Moshiach to an eagle, who saves a bird that cannot sing (Yisrael) from a bush (exile) where they are beset by vultures (anti-semites and other nasties).

HOWEVER, just like the idea of G-d being a "person" or "personlike" being is something of a simplification, so too, is the concept of the Messiah or Moshiach, and the End of Jewish History, which is a little more complicated than just a man (or a woman) that shows up to kick ass.

The End of History, according to the Jews, is more of a process, when the G-dliness in all things is made manifest,apparent, and visible. Think of it like this: when a cow is killed to use its hide to make a Torah, the G-dliness in the cow is made visible and apparent.
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ShinDangaioh
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 09:40:55 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"

Heh! Really? If THOR wasn't your bag, I wonder what you'd think of Jim Starlin's "Adam Warlock: Space Christ."

Ohhhh, boy, what is it about Marvel "cosmic" comics that makes everybody involved think their farts smell like lilacs?

(And am I the only one that noticed that the chick from Epic Comics' DREADSTAR looks EXACTLY like Scarlet from G.I. JOE?)

Hardly.  I was wondering if Dreadstar was a GI Joe comic because of Willow.

And Marvel has been known to infringe on other properties besides cosmic(Royal Roy/Richie Rich for example)

I do like the fact that a small company called Hero Games smacked Marvel down once for infringing on their label of Champions.

As to flight.  I think Helen Slater was the best actor/actress on that paticular power.
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BMK!
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2006, 03:45:30 AM »

Nightwing wrote:

Quote

My problem as a kid...and it's never totally left me...was the way he sort of floated up off the ground and all you heard was the flutter of his cape.  I felt that where George's takeoffs and flights seemed generated by POWER (super-leg muscles), Chris' seemed the product of some kind of magic.  This implication of magic, rather than science (however fanciful) dogged the Reeve films throughout.



When attempts to have George Reeves do wirework went awry, they opted for the trampoline take-off and landing approach combined with the "flying shots", complete with powerful music and thunderous whooshing sfx, to give the illusion of power...but in my mind there was also no mistaking the fact that that same power existed within Reeve's flights.
The flying shown in the Reeve Superman movies (the first one especially) reflected the mood and emotional state of the Man of Steel. The gentle "cape-flutter" flights were in times of relative calm, such as after saving the cat from a tree or arriving/leaving Lois's apartment. The more driven, purposeful "speeding bullet" flights took place when Superman's speeding off in a race against the missiles or frantically getting to Lois in her car, moments from death.
There are moments where the question of "How Fast Can Superman Fly?", is posed and it seems as if Superman himself is unsure of the limits of his flying power, that is until he's pushed into a state of such anguish, frustration and rage after Lois dies that he pushes his speeds to unheard of measurements as it defies the laws of physics, time and space. To me, that is POWER.
It's funny, especially after watching Superman Returns, how much my thoughts of Superman's abilities reflect that of when I was a child. It's neither magic or science....they are simply the things only a Superman could do.

Quote
In the second film, he has his powers removed by some sort of tanning booth in a manner that's never really explained, then he gets them back without even an attempt at explanation.  Jor-El's messages at first seem to be recordings, but then he answers questions and has give-and-take discussions with Superman like he's a ghost, not a hologram.  In Donner's version of S:II, Jor even "sacrifices himself" to get the super back in Superman.  How can you sacrifice yourself if you're already dead?  Again, there's something supernatural and magical at work here.  And how else do you explain super-Great-Wall-Of-China-rebuilding-vision if not magic?




The way I viewed the aspect of Jor-El, when it came to the crystal technology, is that part of it contained original recordings....holograms, made by Jor-El...the other part served more as an interactive program that took on the likeness of Jor-El, used a pre-recorded vocablulary base, of his own words, to speak and made suppositions/opinions based on Jor-El's pre-existing memory files and how he dealt with similar matters in the past. This "father crystal" was meant to represent Jor-El in every conceivable way so that Kal-El would "never be alone", but only in the best way that Kryptonian technology could replicate.

Clark is told that once he uses the machine that would permanently take away his powers, it could not be reversed. And that was probably true. The machine's programming was designed for a single purpose. However, when a beaten, humbled and desperate Clark returns to the Fortress, begging for his father's help....in my mind, as I filled in the blanks....the father crystal lit up, answering his call. It explained to him that the only way the situation could be reversed is if the crystal downloads into the main circuit board of the machine and overwrites it's original programming and reconfigures the crystalline technology to alter his molecules to once again harness the sun's energy. But by doing so, would burn out the green father crystal, rendering it forever inert (which is why is not seen in Superman Returns), effectively "sacrificing" itself for the love of a son.

Course, much like the we-ran-out-of-money-so-it-would-look-cool-to-beam-something-out-of-Superman's-eyes-to-fix-the-Great-Wall-vision, it doesn't explain how that crystal returns in Superman IV to fix his ailing health after his run-in with the Nuclear Man and the movie script.[/quote][/b]
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KavMan
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« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2006, 10:11:07 PM »

I'm speaking now as somebody who first saw Batman Begins and came out not know if I liked it or not!

It's a new film which came out after years, with new actors, plot, style ect... And Christian Bale, a bit... Can't get the word out...

But after a while the movie grew on me, and my second time to see the picture i really enjoyed it.

I think it's the same here with SR. It's been so long since the big screen welcomed him and the last time with awful "The Quest For Peace Of Piss", so we're introduced to new actors playing our fave characters and it's a bit strange to watch first time round.

Both excitment and what-not, and I came away feeling "Okay... That was... ... ...".

But on my second time to watch it it became more comfortable and refreshing, and it grew on me.

I could then say "It was a good movie".

As for Routh. A bit strange seeing him in the suit and all that, and my first time seeing him was "IS he Superman or what? Can he pull it off?"

But my second time I was watching Branden Routh as Superman and I could believe it!

He grew on me... time is all you need. When the DVD comes out and you buy it, it won't be weird watching it. And it won't be weird watching Routh.

That's my final thought!  Smiley

[cK]
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Uncle Mxy
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2006, 04:26:05 AM »

Quote from: "KavMan"
I'm speaking now as somebody who first saw Batman Begins and came out not know if I liked it or not!

It's a new film which came out after years, with new actors, plot, style ect... And Christian Bale, a bit... Can't get the word out...

But after a while the movie grew on me, and my second time to see the picture i really enjoyed it.

After Keaton, Kilmer, and Clooney, I was used to the idea of a "different" Batman.  I had confidence in Bale based on his past work (Equilibrium in particular).  I enjoyed Batman Begins once it was clear that "Bat-nipples" weren't part of the equation.  I don't even begrudge Batman not being much of a science guy when you have Morgan Freeman in the mix.  

But...  none of them defined Batman on film the way Reeve had defined Superman, even in the lousy movies.  If I were asked "Who played Batman on film...  pick the first person who comes in your head", I'd say Adam West without hesitation.  For Superman, most people's answer is Reeve (or sounds like Reeve Smiley ).  Most people can't even say Routh's last name right, by comparison.

I think he did a decent job.  I wish he talked more, but I loved his speech to the kid at the end.
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Criadoman
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2006, 08:28:12 AM »

Well - I also preferred Routh's Superman over Reeves.  It wasn't easy to finally decide this by the way.  I actually had to go back to what I thought when I 1st saw Reeves.

1) George was my 1st taste of a live action Superman,
2) Jimmy, Lois and Perry live actions from the TV show grooved me into Superman's universe.

I recall thinking Chris was way too skinny, and his hair was way too long.
Flying was nice except how often the poor guys legs would hang just a little down when he was flying with Lois or solo shots.  Glutes weren't built for that.
I didn't like Otis, and didn't like Luthor when he was being a little campy.  Too "Batman" for me on that one.  And Margot Kidder was just a little too plain.

Jimmy and Perry were perfect.

Clark's portrayal was a little too nerdy for me.

This time around...

Routh was built more like a hero,
Lois was very pretty,
Jimmy was the best I've ever seen him,
Clark was more a nothing and white-bread than an absolute nerd,
Luthor was scarier,
Superman actually flew and hovered,
I loved the whole "world at large" and Superman the world hero thing running in the movie (missed the American Way part, but that's more the patriot in me I guess).

In some ways, so much a better presentation of Superman - the best yet.

But, there is a lot of charm missing that Chris' movie had.  There was a bit of a personable quality that Chris had - particularly in little items like looking into the camera at the end when flying over the Earth.  It would have been nice to get Routh to do some of that.  Something along those lines.  Somehow, the 1st movie involved you into it.  This one, you tended to feel a little alien in it.  Dunno how to put it.  Anyway, maybe after some sleep...[/quote]
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Uncle Mxy
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« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2006, 01:12:07 AM »

Skinny?  I never saw Reeve as being skinny.  By the time Darth Vader was done with him, he had a much more heroic build than anything I've seen out of Routh thus far.
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Criadoman
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« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2006, 01:18:49 AM »

Routh is thicker than Chris was.  I'm not saying he was a tooth pick - especially compared to the audition tape when he tried for the role.  I'm saying he was thinner than what I was expecting of a Superman.  Chris added more weight in 3 and 4 and I thought looked better in the suit.  I think Routh has more muscle mass than Reeve did in the 1st 2 movies is all.
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"If I print "She was stark naked"--& then proceeded to describe her person in detail, what critic would not howl?--but the artist does this & all ages gather around & look & talk & point." - Mark Twain
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