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Author Topic: You guys may want to shoot me but I actually prefer Routh  (Read 14416 times)
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nightwing
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2006, 03:11:39 AM »

I want to back up and answer Julian on the flying thing.

I didn't mean to imply Chris wasn't great at flying, in fact after all these years it's the one thing that's still unfailingly fun to watch in the first film (well, after that astonishing cinematography in the Kansas scenes...WOW!).  I agree a big reason we did believe a man could fly was because Chris "sold" it with his body language, maybe indeed because he understood the physics of real flying.  Let's face it we've all seen tons of wirework since 1978, most of technically superior to what was in that film, yet about 89% looks totally fake...cool sometimes, but fake nonetheless.  Reeve made it look like he really was flying even with that 30-year-old technology.

My problem as a kid...and it's never totally left me...was the way he sort of floated up off the ground and all you heard was the flutter of his cape.  I felt that where George's takeoffs and flights seemed generated by POWER (super-leg muscles), Chris' seemed the product of some kind of magic.  This implication of magic, rather than science (however fanciful) dogged the Reeve films throughout.  In the second film, he has his powers removed by some sort of tanning booth in a manner that's never really explained, then he gets them back without even an attempt at explanation.  Jor-El's messages at first seem to be recordings, but then he answers questions and has give-and-take discussions with Superman like he's a ghost, not a hologram.  In Donner's version of S:II, Jor even "sacrifices himself" to get the super back in Superman.  How can you sacrifice yourself if you're already dead?  Again, there's something supernatural and magical at work here.  And how else do you explain super-Great-Wall-Of-China-rebuilding-vision if not magic?

Anyway, I always felt the Salkind movies, on some fundamental level, never really understood what Superman was about (super-cellophaning, anyone?) and for me it all started with that Peter Pan takeoff.  That's probably just my hang-up, I don't know.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2006, 04:22:03 AM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
I want to back up and answer Julian on the flying thing.

I didn't mean to imply Chris wasn't great at flying, in fact after all these years it's the one thing that's still unfailingly fun to watch in the first film (well, after that astonishing cinematography in the Kansas scenes...WOW!).  


Where was that filmed? I think I heard part of it was in Newfoundland or somewhere. Either way, it looked beautiful. If I wasn't mistaken, didn't the cinematographer die on making it?

Plus, those scenes had the Best Supporting Performance by a Cereal Box.

Quote from: "nightwing"
My problem as a kid...and it's never totally left me...was the way he sort of floated up off the ground and all you heard was the flutter of his cape.  I felt that where George's takeoffs and flights seemed generated by POWER (super-leg muscles), Chris' seemed the product of some kind of magic.  


Well, if you like power, SUPERMAN RETURNS certainly delivers. I especially like when Superman landed on Luthor's island, and there was an angry, purposeful CRACK with his landing!

Quote from: "nightwing"
This implication of magic, rather than science (however fanciful) dogged the Reeve films throughout. In the second film, he has his powers removed by some sort of tanning booth in a manner that's never really explained, then he gets them back without even an attempt at explanation.  Jor-El's messages at first seem to be recordings, but then he answers questions and has give-and-take discussions with Superman like he's a ghost, not a hologram.  In Donner's version of S:II, Jor even "sacrifices himself" to get the super back in Superman.  How can you sacrifice yourself if you're already dead?  Again, there's something supernatural and magical at work here.  And how else do you explain super-Great-Wall-Of-China-rebuilding-vision if not magic?

Anyway, I always felt the Salkind movies, on some fundamental level, never really understood what Superman was about (super-cellophaning, anyone?) and for me it all started with that Peter Pan takeoff.  That's probably just my hang-up, I don't know.


Interesting points. On reflection, some of the elements of Superman did feel "mystical" in nature - and everybody can safely agree that the powers lost/regained is pretty goofy.

One specific incident of mysticism creeping up: before the Donner/Reeves film, any similarities to Jesus were incidental; afterward, they were explicit.

And like you said, the Singer film, for all of its many strengths, does choose to take some of the earlier film's missteps, and among them is the idea of Superman as a holy or Christlike figure - for instance, Brendan Routh falling to earth in a sort of "stained glass window" posture. This always made me squirm just a little bit in my seat for two reasons:

1) the pretention of it always bugged me.  As I said earlier when people were comparing Superman to mythological characters: Superman doesn't NEED to be compared explicitly to holy men and mythological heroes. Just have Superman be who he is, and if the stories are good, the comparisons suggest themselves.

2) Previously, before the Donner films, Superman was a Jewish figure created by two Jewish guys, who, not because of any conscious choice on their part, had Superman have incidental similarities and comparisons to Jewish folk heroes, and gave Superman Jewish "themes" like exile and special identity. None of these things were the creator's deliberate intention, but they were there just the same: the evil Amalak, Len Wein writing a story called "Let my People Grow" and so on.

On the other hand, watching non-Jews turn around and make Superman EXPLICITLY Christian gives me the same feeling I'm sure black people must feel when they see white people doing hip-hop.

Quote from: "MatterEaterLad"
Now the concept of flying is making me think...to me, in the original feature cartoons, and even the live action serials, Superman flew in a direction, like an airplane (and he landed with a "whoop" sound in the Alwyn series), and that was even more true of George Reeve's jump and whirl of air effect...the Superman floating or levitating seemed odd to me at the time, even if he was doing that high in the sky all the time in the Silver Age comics...


Actually, I was thinking that Superman levitating slightly over the ground one be one of the things that really would be neat to see in a movie. This is something that couldn't be done with wireworks unless you had a convincing actor, because then their legs would just "dangle."

Like Nightwing said, though, it would be interesting if they came up something to make the power look like it's got "power." Perhaps when Superman levitates, there's little gusts of air beneath him, like being beneath a helicopter.
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2006, 04:33:30 AM »

Well, in the recent film, he does "hover" inches from the ground for a long time when he falls through the barn...

I tend to think that a high speed take off mimics air planes, everyone's most familiar take on flight in the 40s-60s...its kind of funny that even Swan's Superman often stopped in mid flight, but I can't remember him ever levitating when he jumped out of the Daily Planet windows before he shot off to his mission...
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2006, 01:28:59 PM »

WAYNE BORING'S sUPERMAN APPEARED TO BE RUNNING ON AIR.
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2006, 03:41:46 AM »

Well, sure, there were many styles of flying...one thing that comics don't portray that well or even really deal with is the take off... Cool
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nightwing
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« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2006, 03:57:15 AM »

Julian Perez writes:

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Where was that filmed? I think I heard part of it was in Newfoundland or somewhere. Either way, it looked beautiful. If I wasn't mistaken, didn't the cinematographer die on making it?


Well it was definitely Canada, although Newfoundland doesn't sound right.  I'll have to see if I can unearth my copy of the "Making Of" book and look it up.

Yes, the cinematographer did pass away before the film was released, though I think his work on it was done.  If memory serves, his name was Geoffrey Unsworth, and the film was dedicated to his memory.

Quote
One specific incident of mysticism creeping up: before the Donner/Reeves film, any similarities to Jesus were incidental; afterward, they were explicit.


You're right about that.  Mario Puzo (or whomever) laid it on with a trowel in those Jor-El speeches ("I have sent them you, my only son...").  A lot's been made about the Christian symbols in the new film, but it was a lot more jarring and out of left field in the first one.  It was also a bit unsettling for me as the son of a Methodist minister...I remember having an aversion even to "Thor" comics because it seemed to endorse polytheism! :shock:

Anyway I agree it's more fun when the viewer/reader is left to connect the dots himself.  Making it overt is a lot clumsier and not nearly so clever as the storytellers seem to think.

Quote
2) Previously, before the Donner films, Superman was a Jewish figure created by two Jewish guys, who, not because of any conscious choice on their part, had Superman have incidental similarities and comparisons to Jewish folk heroes, and gave Superman Jewish "themes" like exile and special identity. None of these things were the creator's deliberate intention, but they were there just the same: the evil Amalak, Len Wein writing a story called "Let my People Grow" and so on.


I've seen Superman compared to the Golem by commentators a lot better qualified to know than I, but (as admittedly a Christian with little insight into Jewish lore) I always thought Superman was a Jewish kid's (or maybe adult's) view of what a savior SHOULD be.  One of the reasons Christ had his work cut out for him getting followers was because he arrived...the messiah foretold for centuries...as a poor carpenter preaching peace and riding into town on a donkey.  I'm sure anyone who stayed up at night all those centuries telling or listening to tales of the coming messiah would have much preferred a savior who could toss the oppressor across the room, who kicked butt and took names, and just to make things even more iron-clad, wore an "S" for Savior on his tunic.

I always assumed Jerry and Joe were creating for themselves the savior history never gave them.
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« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2006, 12:26:09 PM »

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I always assumed Jerry and Joe were creating for themselves the savior history never gave them.



I wouldn't read too much into it. They created the ultimate power fantasy, a strong man who could stand up to crooks and hoodlums and fight for the working class of America. A super nerd who could get any woman he liked, if he really wanted to, just by taking off his shirt.

Sure there was the whole Moses/Samson angle for his origin and powers but he wasn't suppose represent them. He was suppose represent Jerry and Joe!
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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2006, 03:06:00 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Actually, I was thinking that Superman levitating slightly over the ground one be one of the things that really would be neat to see in a movie. This is something that couldn't be done with wireworks unless you had a convincing actor, because then their legs would just "dangle."

I know you can't stand it, but Lois & Clark had a number of decent scenes of Superman/Clark hovering in various contexts, mostly because it was a cheap  effect.  Dean Cain looked better doing it than, say, the Phantom Zone villains on the lake in Superman II.
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