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Author Topic: What would PC Supes stand for in "Civil War"  (Read 17113 times)
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Rugal 3:16
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« on: August 02, 2006, 02:53:39 PM »

Who would Pre-Supes side with in "Civil War"

(BTW the "unrealism" of Civil War's premise (The humans realizing JUST NOW that not only mutants but superheroes area potential threat) in a realistic format is a paradox of another discussion.. but feel free to discuss it anyway)

Iron Man's Faction which sides with "humanity" and exposes their identities and becomes legalized so that the superhero community would get some rep?? Spidey's revelation is the most shocking

Captain America's Faction which wants to keep their anonymous identities (even though cap's Id is public) for giving the heroes who bled, and sweat for the world.. also since he knows that there are politicians who can twist "superheroes" as much as they twist the law (Imagine if Luthor was president of the 616 universe during Civil War)

Would Clark invite the full press and tear off his short to reveal teh Big S

or do you think he would side with Cap.. since the Pre-C supes did say once "there are some Moral laws above some man-made laws"
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2006, 06:08:57 PM »

First, there's nothing further removed from "reality" than a Marvel comic.

Second, I don't read "Civil War," though I have heard bits and pieces of what I think it's about...including your post.

Frank Miller already mined this concept in "Dark Knight Returns" about 20 years ago (but that's Marvel: the House of Recycled Ideas) and when he told the story, Superman sided with the government, revealing his identity (at least to government officials; it's unclear whether the world at large knows) and operating with the sanction (and at the political whim) of whatever administration's in power at the moment.  Miller's thinking seems to be that Superman would prefer to continue helping mankind however he can, and if that means bowing to government rules, then so be it.

Frankly, I don't buy it.  This plot twist works in the context of story where Supes is a walk-on character and we're supposed to be sympathetic to Batman and his oppposing viewpoint, but that's about it.  I mean, what would be the motive for Superman to give in?  Fear that the public would lose faith in him if he didn't obey a government edict?  Come on, the government might be able to convince the public that certain heroes are a "risk" of some kind, but not Superman!  It's hard to imagine any politician putting his own reputation up against Superman's and coming out on top.  On the contrary, politicians would go out of their way to be seen and photographed with their arm around Big Blue...assaulting his character would be poltical suicide.  IF Superman gave in to a "registration act" I think it would only be to set an example to other heroes who were on the fence about what to do.  And even then, I don't buy it, because he'd be morally opposed to it.

Superman has worked cheek-to-jowl with heroes of every stripe, from demi-gods to guys-next-door, and he appreciates more than anyone the courage and character it takes for a mere mortal to fight evil.  If anything, he thinks the non-supers in the biz are more heroic than he is.  And he knows that they couldn't do it without the masks. He knows what would happen to, say, Bruce Wayne if his secret were to be revealed, and there's no way on Earth he'd stand by and let that happen.  

Would Superman give up his Clark Kent ID if he believed the government was in the right to ask for it?  I think he might, in a world where he was the only superhero...at the end of the day, he can live without Clark Kent (might not be pleasant, but it's at least possible).  But I think he would fight on behalf of all the guys and gals out there who canNOT live without their secret IDs.  People who not only couldn't do their jobs anymore, but who would likely be killed by their enemies for good works of the past.

So from the scenario you describe, I think Superman would be like Captain America...fighting against registration more for the sake of others than out of any interest in preserving his own personal secrets.

Anyway, what good could ever come of registration?  Would they have heroes going into action only with proper approvals, completed travel forms and, at the end of an adventure, an expense voucher all filled out in triplicate? The whole appeal of superheroes is that they get things done when the "proper authorities" cannot...which is pretty much all the time.  

And what about the national budget? Who would pay to take care of the registered heroes' loved ones?  Spidey's got MJ and Aunt May, but there are what, 8,000 Marvel heroes tripping over each other on any given day, and each one with a family and friends.  How can the government hope to pay for that many bodyguards?  And how would they pay all those unmasked heroes when they had to quit their current jobs...which they most certainly would, or risk endangering places of business around the country.  What taxpayer would sit still for having all those supers added to the government payroll when, until now, they were out there participating in the economy with the rest of us wage slaves, and fighting crime for free?

Whatever.  I'd say it'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the Marvel Universe, except for two things:  (1) I'll never read it anyway and (2) whatever happens it'll all have to be re-booted a month after it's done.  THere's no way they'll manage to keep Spider-Man's books, for example, going with Peter Parker's ID public knowledge as he lives in Avenger's Mansion (or whatever).  These guys have opened a Pandora's Box and I have no doubt that it'll all be swept quietly under the rug as quickly as possible.
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Great Rao
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2006, 07:26:45 PM »

Boy, I must really be out of touch!  Before I read your post, Nightwing, I thought Rugal was asking whether Superman would side with the North or the South in the Civil War!

I'm glad he didn't, though - that would have been just another pointless debate.

S!
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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2006, 07:53:29 PM »

Hey, Superman did pick sides in the American Civil War.  Notice he's wearing blue pants.  That's how we identified our targets down here in Richmond.

Anyway, I resist calling the events at Marvel a "Civil War."  It is at worst an insurgency.
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2006, 09:57:49 PM »

At least Miller was clever at the time, the ham-handed comparsions to the  Patriot Act and super heroes being registered as weapons of mass destruction seems pretty obvious in "Civil War"...

I like comics that are a little more timeless...
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Michel Weisnor
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2006, 11:04:28 PM »

I know many of you will disagree, but I disliked Red Son's political message and the portrayal of Superman. That said, I have not read Mark Miller's Civil War.

When are crossover events going to end? This storyline and DC's 52 are selling but I don't understand why.
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Rugal 3:16
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2006, 02:26:58 PM »

Michel Weisnor..

Civil War is Marvel's current cross-over event that started with the new warriors trying to subdue a notorious supervillain group, and in the propcess ends up getting killed (taking a huge nuke-ranged population them all erased from the map)

all of a sudden there is this superhero registration act that indicates superheroes are becoming reckless and needs public approval..

Iron Man goes through with it and convinces Spider-man

Cap decides against it and becomes a renegade

If you read zombies comments' they say all good things about it..

I admit it IS a good read IMO a little better than Infinite Crisis

the flare the drama, the pulse-pounding "what happens next" shocker witha  lot of political fiasco here and there (although IMO that's quite hypocritical of people with spandex)

but nightwing once said something along the lines of

I'm sorry nw I don't know the exact words you said but..

"All rellevant stories, mature themes, morality and the whatnot but everything falls apart when everyone fails to realize Clark Kent is Superman because of his glasses"

Civil War follows the same premise, if you can "suspend your disbelief" enough to get past the flawed premise (i stated it) it is a good read in it's context but again almost every other two scenes in the story REMINDS me of that "flawed premise" AKA similar to nightwings's everything falls apart when everyone fails to realize Clark Kent is Superman because of his glasses (and I wonder why some Marvel zombies HATE to suspend their disbelief and the like, for example, in Ultimate Fantastic Four we get four pages of Susan Storm Discussing to Reed Richards what happens to his food when he eats it, how his "Stretching digestive system" devours it and lotsa 'Psuedo-Science'... WTF WHO CARES, Reed Richards can Sretch END OF STORY I wouldn't waste one panel with this talking heads gobbledygook let alone four pages)

one thing was Iron Man having a conversation about the triggering event with Emma Frost, and she compared notes with their mutants' "Genoshan Genocide" which reaffirms that the superheroes "ignored" everything mutants related because the mutants should have a "universe" feel that makes them unique to the other MU.

I'm glad no one even brought up that 911 took place in the 616 Universe, where again the heroes "Failed" to do something about it..

thing is a lot of past marvel events could have triggered Civil War

Ultron Taking an island hostage
the Infinity series
Kree Skrull War
And a lot more I'm forgetting

But If I can susped my disbelief why Superman can fly (basic)


I can definetely suspend my disbelief about the premise and enjoy the story in it's context (the more paradoxial one)

but still

"Superheroes and Reality cannot co-exists with one another, they either succeed and we realize how irrelevant they are in our world, or they fail and we wonder what good their powers are..

.. If they really believe in doing the right thing, they'd tackle the roots of evil instead of reacting to it's effects, BUT IF THEY DID.. what makes them different than say Ra's Al Ghul who bends the world to their own will"..  

Who said that? was it aldous or nightwing?? it's one of THE BEST quotes i've ever read, I can't forget it..

Another example.. You cannot be just a superhero and be flying around the world, Imagine how many AIRSPACE VIOLATIONS you would cause!!!
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Otenami Haiken to iko ka
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2006, 04:19:27 PM »

Civil War simply proves that it's fun seeing heroes go at it.  There've been groups of superheroes having skirmishes with each other ever since there've been groups of superheroes.  That slowed down once all of the superheroes were properly introduced and all the "superheroes are being mindcontrolled" plots got old, so now they have another reason.  

As for Superman...  well, depends on the era.  I'm surprised the pre-Crisis Superman didn't cause the U.S. to amend the Constitution so they could write him in as President, assuming that the U.N. didn't ask him to run things.  It'd be fun to see him send MacDuff the robot to meet up with heads of state while Superman was busy saving the world.  ("Oh no, I can't possibly run a country!  I have to get that article to Perry by morning!")
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