Superman Through the Ages!Holliston School Committee  
  •   forum   •   THIS WEEK'S CHAPTER: "THE POWER!" •   fortress   •  
Superman Through the Ages! Forum
News: 2024 UPDATE!! Superman Through the Ages! forum is now securely located at https://WWW.SUPERMANTHROUGHTHEAGES.COM/FORUM - your username and password for forum.superman.nu will still work, although your browser won't know them under the new domain name. You can look them up in your browser's saved passwords.  This is the first time we have had an SSL cert, so your credentials and website activity are now secure!  Please bear with us as we update the site to the brand new, super-secure location of www.supermanthroughtheages.com! This may take some time. For more details, please see the forum update.
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 19, 2024, 08:28:50 PM


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Phantom Zone Miniseries  (Read 21781 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Super Monkey
Super
League of Supermen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3435



WWW
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2006, 03:39:14 AM »

Quote
equivalents of the Rolling Stones playing "Satisfaction."


Great song but at least they still create new records! They are still a band, if they ONLY played old songs, it would be kind of sad really, but since they are still creating new music it is cool that they are still out there rocking.

Anyway, not to get off track too much, but hey too late for that. It's not just comics, but movies as well. Maybe it's just me but why is it that nearly every movie that is release is a remake, based on a TV show, Video game, Comic or novel. I mean whatever happen to original ideas? Besides SNAKES on a PLANE, what other film this year was original?

Our culture seems to be in deep trouble.


Quote
LOL, well, we are spinning out of Last Days of the Phantom Zone here.


nah, what gives you that idea? Tongue
Quote

but, my argument about the Bronze Age difference focuses on this, an emphasis on Superman fitting in in a contemporary context...move him to TV, give him an ex-jock pain in the butt, focus on his private life and his apartment, try to fit him into what the Guardians believe...alll that is fine but it WAS different..


Also the format changed, it went from a few short stories an issue, to longer stories that took up an whole issue! No more chapters, and the artwork changed as well, becoming bolder, with less panels and splasher.
Curt Swan had to completely change his art-style becoming more "modern" aka Marvel-like  :roll:

Oh and there was Uncle Morty retiring, if that doesn't end the Sliver Age for Superman then nothing does!!!

It is much easlier to track the change in Superman's comics than it is in comics as a whole. It did not happen all at once! For Marvel, for me anyway, once Steve Ditko and Jack kirby left, that was all she wrote for Marvel's Silver Age.  It was a slow process, but the mood, look, and feel of the comics as a whole was very different during the Bronze Age than the Silver Age.
Logged

"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
- Elliot S! Maggin
DBN
Last Son of Krypton
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 274



« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2006, 08:58:45 PM »

Quote
Some of these are good ideas, but most of these are not. Maxima and Riot, for instance, I will give you are extraordinary and worthy villains, created by Roger Stern and Louise Simonson, respectively. Hank Henshaw was an ugly, insincere character with a murky origin and murky motivation and personality, associated with the absolute nadir of Superman's existence. Nothing is less cool than someone desperately trying to be cool.


I love the concept of the character and when handled right, it makes for a very interesting read.

Quote
Conner Kent was ONLY interesting when Geoff Johns got ahold of him in TEEN TITANS and made him grow up and behave in a mature fashoin, as well as streamlined his entire concept.


Johns turned Kon-El into a typical brooding and angsty teenager, retreaded plot points made in his solo series and YJ, and then killed him off. Johns handling of the character was only marginly better than Didio's.

I'll take Karl Kessel's, Ron Marz's, Joe Kelly's, Peter David's, and Abnett n' Lanning's take on the character overs John's anyday.

Quote
Steel has a big fat nothing of a personality, and his gizmos aren't even that interesting, either. A dull, derivative character that adds nothing to the Superman Mythos.


In the Post-Crisis era, he acted more like Superman than Kal-El did.

Quote
Kal-El as a descendant of Rao is a totally inappropriate concept, because the Superman stories have always been science fiction with his Krypton a 1930s style technocratic and atheistic society, and this grounds it in mysticism (one can argue the PHANTOM ZONE mini did the same, but it was nonetheless in a science fiction context, and one can argue the zone has such liminality that weird elements are certainly possible in it that aren't elsewhere).


I like it, it adds more mythical background to a character that has been seen as a modern-day Hercules.

Quote
Every single one of the Metropolis supporting cast was an annoying, one-dimensional cardboard bore: Ron Troupe, Bibbo (a ridiculous, Giffen-esque caricature meant for "comedy" but like Giffen's work, lacks charm or even the very comedy), Cat Grant, Perry White's drug addict son. Mostly they were used for superhumanly dull, page-killing human interest stories that made Superman's stories earthbound, and Superman into an inferior Spider-Man.


The only problem that I had with the supporting cast was that their storylines would completly take over the books at times.
Logged
JulianPerez
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1168



« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2006, 01:22:05 PM »

I can't believe I went this far talking about the PHANTOM ZONE mini, and I didn't have a few nice words to say about Gene Colan's art!

Granted, Colan wasn't as definitive as Curt Swan or even the extraordinary Garcia-Lopez, but he did bring very unique things to the table that benefitted Superman and the miniseries:

The best was the sense of POWER. The only other artist that brought this much dynamism to Superman was Ross Andru when he returned from Marvel. The Phantom Zoners destructive spree worked because buildings and mountains were shattered; there was one panel through the end where Superman goes through a wall (something he often does) but strangely, it was so powerful it felt like it was the first time we had ever seen Superman do it before!

Contrast this with Gil Kane's Superman Specials (which I've argued at times were the worst stories ever done in Superman's Pre-Crisis existence), which was barely even a year later. Gil Kane, as undoubtedly great as he is, at least here was slacking off: Superman stops tidal waves, and comets, but all of it done with Kane asleep at the wheel. If you've seen Superman stop one comet, you've seen him stop them all.

I've always felt guilty disagreeing with Great Rao about something. I feel like a surly drunk trying to start a barfight with Mister Rogers.
Logged

"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
Permanus
Superman Squad
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 875



« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2006, 01:55:28 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
I can't believe I went this far talking about the PHANTOM ZONE mini, and I didn't have a few nice words to say about Gene Colan's art!

Colan was surprisingly good in his portrayals of Superman. One of the best Superman drawings ever made is from JEMM, SON OF SATURN, the bit at the end of the first issue where Superman appears in the White House and says something to the effect of "He can't be from Saturn. I should know... I've been there."
Logged

Between the revolution and the firing-squad, there is always time for a glass of champagne.
JulianPerez
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1168



« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 07:54:09 AM »

Quote from: "DBN"
Johns turned Kon-El into a typical brooding and angsty teenager, retreaded plot points made in his solo series and YJ, and then killed him off. Johns handling of the character was only marginly better than Didio's.

I'll take Karl Kessel's, Ron Marz's, Joe Kelly's, Peter David's, and Abnett n' Lanning's take on the character overs John's anyday.


Under David and others, Conner was an irritating parody of what a 40-50 year old man thinks a teenager in the 1990s is like: pizza-eating, horny, inarticulate, a television-watching slacker. In the wake of this, Johns remaking Superboy as a mature and sober-minded figure forced to grow up by some pretty astonishing revelations comes off as "character doctoring."

Conner Kent, pre-Johns, just didn't WORK. His origin was as murky as the Scottish Moors in the wee hours of the morn. Compare this to his tight Johns origin: a clone of both Superman, AND Lex Luthor, which is a strong, unique idea that implies a conflict.

Now, the haircut didn't make Superboy a bad character. Lots of great characters have had terrible, terrible outfits (Black Goliath comes to mind, as do most members of the Legion of Super-Heroes, including the "Rocky Horror" Cosmic Boy duds, or the "Femullet" that John Byrne gave to Sue Storm). But the haircut is totally typical of just what went wrong with the character: the way Conner was made too hip for words, to the point where it came off as really insincere, and looking back, is tragically dated. I mean...a LEATHER JACKET?


'EYYYYYY!

One issue of SUPERMAN captures the spirit of the Peter David YOUNG JUSTICE perfectly:

The members of YJ show up in that crrrrraaaaazy cycle they borrowed from the Forever People, zooming in to help Superman save the day. Superman asks their mentor, Red Tornado, why they showed up so quickly. Reddy's response? "They're teenagers. Inevitably, they watch television." Auggggh!

Deliver us, O Lord, from middle-aged men writing hip teenage stereotypes! In a sense, YOUNG JUSTICE and Superboy is typical of an entire odious nineties mentality, acting like a Bizarro World version of ENDER'S GAME: instead of kids being smarter than we take them granted for as was done in Orson Scott Card's book, instead, YJ, GENERATION X, MAJOR BUMMER, YOUNG HEROES IN LOVE, and most odiously and excreably of all, GEN-13, showed us teens are much, much dumber.

As for Johns killing him off...

Well, here's the thing: he didn't die like a dog, the way Earth-1 Supergirl did. If you take Supergirl's (rather nauseating) death out of the original CRISIS, the story would have worked just fine, and the death was an unwelcome non-sequitur. Compare this to Superboy's death in INFINITE CRISIS: it is the pivotal, turning point of not just Superboy's own story arc (where he has a choice between heroism and villainy and here, he chooses heroism in a pretty phenomenal, and final, way), not just the stories of Superman, Earth-2 Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman (everybody gets their collective s**t together after this). Conner Kent's death is the pivotal moment of IC, and the DC Universe for the next year: everything that is happening in 52 and One Year Later is a direct result of what Superboy did in IC #6.

If I was a superhero, that's how I would want to go.

Quote from: "DBN"
In the Post-Crisis era, he acted more like Superman than Kal-El did.


Maybe, but Pre-Crisis Superman was never boring.

Quote from: "DBN"
I like it, it adds more mythical background to a character that has been seen as a modern-day Hercules.


But Superman isn't mythological in nature. A Krypton with active, Greek-style gods that have descendants is totally incompatible with the Hugo Gernsback-style, 1930s art deco, vaguely atheist utopia of Krypton.

While Superman has many superficial similarities to Hercules, that doesn't mean that elements of Hercules's story should be placed in Superman's story, just as space pirates and supercomputers would be unwelcome in Hercules's story.
Logged

"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
MatterEaterLad
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1389


Silver Age Surfer


WWW
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2006, 03:10:00 PM »

Well, without commenting on IC, why is it a perception that Supergirl "died like a dog" in COIE?  It wasn't a slugfest with her beaten to a pulp, she saved Kal and I suppose it was an important mark of a plan to show this was supposed to be a big idea...

Just taking that story as a story, it didn't come across as meaningless to me, and not nearly the slap in the face as the later idea that "she never existed" or could ever be spoken of again.
Logged
DBN
Last Son of Krypton
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 274



« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2006, 09:02:15 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"


Under David and others, Conner was an irritating parody of what a 40-50 year old man thinks a teenager in the 1990s is like: pizza-eating, horny, inarticulate, a television-watching slacker. In the wake of this, Johns remaking Superboy as a mature and sober-minded figure forced to grow up by some pretty astonishing revelations comes off as "character doctoring."


Under the others, Kon was a happy, free-going character who didn't spend all of his time brooding over his origins.

Quote
Conner Kent, pre-Johns, just didn't WORK. His origin was as murky as the Scottish Moors in the wee hours of the morn. Compare this to his tight Johns origin: a clone of both Superman, AND Lex Luthor, which is a strong, unique idea that implies a conflict.


Kon's origin wasn't murky before Johns, it was quite simple: he was a geneticly-engineered human and the closest that human scientists could get to cloning a Kryptonian without making another Bizarro.

Johns origin does nothing more than upgrade the status of his genetic donor and retread plot lines dealt with in Kon's solo series. In his solo series, Kon had actually got over the fact that his donor was evil and had moved on.

Quote
Now, the haircut didn't make Superboy a bad character. Lots of great characters have had terrible, terrible outfits (Black Goliath comes to mind, as do most members of the Legion of Super-Heroes, including the "Rocky Horror" Cosmic Boy duds, or the "Femullet" that John Byrne gave to Sue Storm). But the haircut is totally typical of just what went wrong with the character: the way Conner was made too hip for words, to the point where it came off as really insincere, and looking back, is tragically dated. I mean...a LEATHER JACKET?


At least he had an actual costume.

Quote
One issue of SUPERMAN captures the spirit of the Peter David YOUNG JUSTICE perfectly:

The members of YJ show up in that crrrrraaaaazy cycle they borrowed from the Forever People, zooming in to help Superman save the day. Superman asks their mentor, Red Tornado, why they showed up so quickly. Reddy's response? "They're teenagers. Inevitably, they watch television." Auggggh!

Deliver us, O Lord, from middle-aged men writing hip teenage stereotypes! In a sense, YOUNG JUSTICE and Superboy is typical of an entire odious nineties mentality, acting like a Bizarro World version of ENDER'S GAME: instead of kids being smarter than we take them granted for as was done in Orson Scott Card's book, instead, YJ, GENERATION X, MAJOR BUMMER, YOUNG HEROES IN LOVE, and most odiously and excreably of all, GEN-13, showed us teens are much, much dumber.


And please deliver us from the perpetual angst, whining, and depression that has encompassed many of the books now. Nope, can't have any books with a lighter tone.

Quote
As for Johns killing him off...

Well, here's the thing: he didn't die like a dog, the way Earth-1 Supergirl did. If you take Supergirl's (rather nauseating) death out of the original CRISIS, the story would have worked just fine, and the death was an unwelcome non-sequitur. Compare this to Superboy's death in INFINITE CRISIS: it is the pivotal, turning point of not just Superboy's own story arc (where he has a choice between heroism and villainy and here, he chooses heroism in a pretty phenomenal, and final, way), not just the stories of Superman, Earth-2 Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman (everybody gets their collective s**t together after this). Conner Kent's death is the pivotal moment of IC, and the DC Universe for the next year: everything that is happening in 52 and One Year Later is a direct result of what Superboy did in IC #6.


Please, the entire death scene is ludicrous. Kon dies by flying SB Prime (another character that Johns royally screwed up) into a giant tower and is killed by the resulting explosion and debris. An explosion which Nightwing, Wonder Girl, and others walked away from unscathed.

Am I supposed to suddenly forget that NW is completly human and that Kon is a half-Kryptonian that has survived a nuclear explosion in the past? Or how about the fact that Power Girl and the Martian Manhunter were in the same area and could have easily took out the tower without any damage done to them?


Quote
Maybe, but Pre-Crisis Superman was never boring.


All in the eyes of the beholder really. I've never found Steel to be boring.

Quote
But Superman isn't mythological in nature. A Krypton with active, Greek-style gods that have descendants is totally incompatible with the Hugo Gernsback-style, 1930s art deco, vaguely atheist utopia of Krypton.


Only if you have a rigid view of things. I like the premise and believe that it adds to the Superman mythology.

Quote
While Superman has many superficial similarities to Hercules, that doesn't mean that elements of Hercules's story should be placed in Superman's story, just as space pirates and supercomputers would be unwelcome in Hercules's story.


It's a comic book universe. Plus, space pirates and supercomputers might make a pretty good Thor story.
Logged
JulianPerez
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1168



« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2006, 01:58:26 AM »

Quote from: "DBN"
And please deliver us from the perpetual angst, whining, and depression that has encompassed many of the books now. Nope, can't have any books with a lighter tone.


Others may see it differently, but to me, so called "light and comedic" stories (e.g. Giffen) are ultimately a thousand times more harmful to characters than so-called angsty ones, because if you do a dark themed tale, at least you have to play it straight and take the characters seriously.

Which is worse: taking things too seriously, or not enough?

For what it's worth, I'll have to agree with Alan Moore that the official moment the Golden Age ended for the superheroes was the Kurtzman MAD magazine parodies. Unlike Giffen and David and the rest, the MAD comics were truly, hilariously funny, yes, but the parody officially ended whatever vague relevance to pop culture superheroes may have had, and they have never entirely recovered their dignity.

There's such a thing as a parody that is just so TRUE, that it makes what it parodies ultimately irrelevant. It's no wonder that the film version of RENT bombed; how could anybody ever look at it the same way again after "Everybody Has AIDS" from TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE?

It wasn't just that MAD Magazine parodied the superheroes. It was the fact that the parodies reflected a real general shift in sentiment: deprived of the direct good and evil of the Second World War, superheroes, who require good vs. evil and symbolism, no longer functioned in the anxious world of the fifties. Superheroes became a joke. Remember, this was the era where Batman and Robin are gay gags started to be everywhere, and there were a thousand bright blue jokes about Wonder Woman and her lesbian island.

To be fair, there are real differences between the MAD magazine parodies and Giffen, David and the so-called "humorous" take on characters; for one thing, MAD was actually FUNNY. But here's my essential point:

Superheroes didn't die in the fifties because the problems and anxities of the time were beyond them, or because the times were too weird for them. Superheroes died in the 1950s because people laughed at them.

Quote from: "DBN"
Kon's origin wasn't murky before Johns, it was quite simple: he was a geneticly-engineered human and the closest that human scientists could get to cloning a Kryptonian without making another Bizarro.


Well, that's what I mean: if Conner Kent's origin was as the clone of some random guy, who really cares? What's so "Super" about him? Previously, it was thought he was a clone of Superman, but they did plenty of gymnastics around that. Another gutless concession to the Post-Crisis "No Kryptonians" rule.

Quote from: "DBN"
Under the others, Kon was a happy, free-going character who didn't spend all of his time brooding over his origins.


Conner Kent, pre-Johns, wore a leather jacket and had a comb in his pocket so his hair was never out of place.

Now, the fact he was vain doesn't make him a bad character, but under the people that wrote him, he was something of a cartoon, a character right out of High School movies; I doubt under Peter David that Conner could be capable of such really honest moments of the kind Johns gave him, such as for instance, when he and Wonder Girl shared a private moment in that barn during the TEEN TITANS ANNUAL.

(Incidentally, both Geoff Johns and Peter David have two first names.)

Quote from: "DBN"
Please, the entire death scene is ludicrous. Kon dies by flying SB Prime (another character that Johns royally screwed up) into a giant tower and is killed by the resulting explosion and debris. An explosion which Nightwing, Wonder Girl, and others walked away from unscathed.

Am I supposed to suddenly forget that NW is completly human and that Kon is a half-Kryptonian that has survived a nuclear explosion in the past? Or how about the fact that Power Girl and the Martian Manhunter were in the same area and could have easily took out the tower without any damage done to them?


To be fair, Kon-El was at Ground Zero for that particular collision and the others were not, and with a being as powerful as Superboy-Prime, it's really hard to say ANYONE would walk away from a fight with him without a scratch. If Power Girl or John Jones had distracted him, it would have been just as much of a sacrifice play as if Conner had.

I think you're missing my point, though. I agree that the Death Scene wasn't perfect by any means. What I'm saying though, is that it wasn't some random non-sequitur or shock value death; he didn't die like Pantha or Wildebeest did earlier, as afterthoughts. His death is pretty much the central focus of the story arc of five major characters, as well as the direction of the DCU post-IC. In other words, his death MATTERED. It can't be said that he was just "thrown away."

Quote from: "DBN"
It's a comic book universe. Plus, space pirates and supercomputers might make a pretty good Thor story.


True, but the example doesn't work because the big secret behind Marvel's Mighty Thor is that he isn't "mythological." In fact, with Thor, the further in the stories get away from Norse myth, the better they are. The more interesting Thor elements are not the ones lifted from myth, but things like the Destroyer, the Enchantress, the Rigellians, the High Evolutionary, Ego: the Living Planet, and so forth.

It's like when people say that Indiana Jones is based on the 1930s-1940s movie serials. The serials were merely the bare blueprints for something that had so many other influences that it was ultimately unique.

At some level, this sort of non-mythological science fiction stuff is a part of what Mighty Thor is all about; the same can't be said of Superman and the Kryptonese mythology. Truth be told, in nearly fifty years, the only thing about these gods that we really KNOW is that Yuda was the moon goddess and Kara was the Kryptonian goddess of beauty. They're a barely peripheral part of worldbuilding instead of active, real, and significant forces, cute factoids for Krypton fans to throw around like the fact the main building material on Krypton is a plastic called Grahu, or the Kryptoniad.

Quote from: "MatterEaterLad"
Well, without commenting on IC, why is it a perception that Supergirl "died like a dog" in COIE? It wasn't a slugfest with her beaten to a pulp, she saved Kal and I suppose it was an important mark of a plan to show this was supposed to be a big idea...


The reasoning behind the "died like a dog" statement (and certainly, a character as historically important as Kara deserved better) was that ultimately, her death wasn't important to the CRISIS story. By contrast, Ferro Lad's death under Jim Shooter and Curt Swan was the vital climax and resolution of the Sun-Eater story, for instance.

Not only that, but the scene was hardly touching, the way the death of the Swordsman was in GIANT-SIZED AVENGERS #2 (possibly the greatest death scene in comics history). Marv Wolfman, whenever he wants to express powerful emotion, instead of letting the scenes speak for themselves, he lapses into a sort of baby-talk. An example of this is in one issue of NEW TEEN TITANS where the intelligent, educated Dick Grayson says that Cyborg is the "best hero I know of...most anyone!" What, was Shirley Temple talking now?
Logged

"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

CURRENT FORUM

Archives: OLD FORUM  -  DCMB  -  KAL-L
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM
Entrance ·  Origin ·  K-Metal ·  The Living Legend ·  About the Comics ·  Novels ·  Encyclopaedia ·  The Screen ·  Costumes ·  Read Comics Online ·  Trophy Room ·  Creators ·  ES!M ·  Fans ·  Multimedia ·  Community ·  Gift Shop ·  Guest Book ·  Contact & Credits ·  Links ·  Social Media ·  Forum

Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster
The LIVING LEGENDS of SUPERMAN! Adventures of Superman Volume 1!
Return to SUPERMAN THROUGH THE AGES!
Buy Comics!