superman.nuMary Immaculate of Lourdes NewtonHolliston School Committeefacebook    
  •   forum   •   COUNTDOWN TO MIRACLE MONDAY: "SONG OF THE EARTH!" •   fortress   •  
Superman Through the Ages! Forum
News: Superman Through the Ages! now located at theAges.superman.nu
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 24, 2024, 05:22:32 PM


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Non-Superman Golden Age characters  (Read 7303 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
MatterEaterLad
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1389


Silver Age Surfer


WWW
« on: August 12, 2006, 06:25:47 PM »

Well, I can see why Supermanica entries from the Golden Age are listed as Earth-2 characters and "All-Star Comics" from the 40s along with "Flash Comics", "All American Comics" etc. are not canon...but I wonder if this implies that the Golden Age Superman never interacted with other super heroes, but that the Earth-2 Superman did...does this imply that the origin of all these characters is not documented and that their 1940s stories occur on an "Earth Golden" or an "Earth-2A"?

It strikes me when I see that the Archer can have an Earth-1 entry from a Golden Age story and an Earth-2 entry, but that the Spectre or Doctor Fate can't...

I suppose there isn't any easy answer, but it still makes me wonder why writers thought that some inconsistencies in Luthor's hair or the name and editor of a newspaper was so important that Earth-2 and Golden Age Superman were two different people...I still doubt this is what Gardner Fox intended, but that doesn't have any weight... Cool
Logged
Super Monkey
Super
League of Supermen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3435



WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2006, 08:14:46 PM »

It is very confusing at times.

Basically Earth-2 Superman didn't appear in the comics until 1966 in Justice League of America No. 73 and he didn't appear in the actual Superman books until the 1970's!

So, until Justice League of America becomes canon, he is  Bronze Age character for our project.

Indeed, most of his stories happen in All Star Comics, Justice League of America, Infinity Inc., and All-Star Squadron, none of which are canon as far as our project goes anyway.

Only the Mr. and Mrs. Superman stories and DC Comics Presents count for Supermanica.

Quote
It strikes me when I see that the Archer can have an Earth-1 entry from a Golden Age story and an Earth-2 entry, but that the Spectre or Doctor Fate can't...  


Because Superman never met Spectre or Doctor Fate during the real-life Golden Age in Action Comics or Superman Magazine, they are not canon until they met, which was much later on.

The real Golden Age Archer is considered canon so that is Earth-1. The second Archer from the 1980's was clearly an Earth-2 version, since it said so in the story Wink
Logged

"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
- Elliot S! Maggin
MatterEaterLad
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1389


Silver Age Surfer


WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2006, 08:27:49 PM »

Yeah, sometimes I just think that people drifting to Supermanica over the internet aren't going to pick up on this, but I don't have any better ideas of how to do it...

My main point about someone like the Spectre is that they don't really have origins since their original books are non-canon...so it seems odd to say first appeared in More Fun Comics (1940) and then, that he is a Bronze Age character only...I understand the problem, I don't know why its bugging me today...

I think I'm more mad at DC editorial policy in the 70s, its seems arbitrary to include Luthor with red hair as Earth-2, but bald Luthor with sharp fangs is apparently Earth-1...I don't think that many readers from the 1940s were still around to object to their comics being said to have all occurred on Earth-2...I remembered I asked my mother in the late 1960s (she was a big Jay Garrick Flash fan), and she didn't mind... Cool
Logged
Johnny Nevada
Last Son of Krypton
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 299


Milwaukee, WI


WWW
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2006, 01:48:04 AM »

Quote from: "MatterEaterLad"
Yeah, sometimes I just think that people drifting to Supermanica over the internet aren't going to pick up on this, but I don't have any better ideas of how to do it...

My main point about someone like the Spectre is that they don't really have origins since their original books are non-canon...so it seems odd to say first appeared in More Fun Comics (1940) and then, that he is a Bronze Age character only...I understand the problem, I don't know why its bugging me today...

I think I'm more mad at DC editorial policy in the 70s, its seems arbitrary to include Luthor with red hair as Earth-2, but bald Luthor with sharp fangs is apparently Earth-1...I don't think that many readers from the 1940s were still around to object to their comics being said to have all occurred on Earth-2...I remembered I asked my mother in the late 1960s (she was a big Jay Garrick Flash fan), and she didn't mind... Cool


Your mom read the original Jay Garrick stuff? Cool.... what'd she make of the "new" Flash (Barry Allen)?

Before giving up on writing for Wikipedia, I usually handled the character's versions and histories by splitting their entries into "Golden Age" and "Silver Age" sections; for the Golden Age section, I listed all the info from the real Golden Age comics, then added the appropriate Earth-Two related info (with the Silver Age Lois info treated as all being Earth-One). An example of what I wrote for the Golden Age/Earth-2 Lois (treated as one and the same by me for Wikipedia's purposes, with differences between the Golden Age/Earth-2 elements as mentioned above noted noted), copied-and-pasted (and mostly intact from what I wrote, aside from the annoying deletion of Susie Tompkins from the info box's "relatives" section) from the Wikipedia Lois Lane article:

>>The comics have seen several incarnations of Lois Lane over the decades.
[edit]

Golden Age
The Golden Age Lois Lane and Superman, from the cover of Superman (volume 1) #27 (March-April 1944). Pencils by Wayne Boring.
Enlarge
The Golden Age Lois Lane and Superman, from the cover of Superman (volume 1) #27 (March-April 1944). Pencils by Wayne Boring.

In the earliest Golden Age comics, Lois was featured as an aggressive, career-minded reporter for the Daily Star (the paper's name was changed to The Daily Planet in the early 1940s), who, after Clark Kent joined the paper and Superman debuted around the same time, found herself attracted to Superman, but displeased with her new journalistic competition in the form of Kent. Starting in the late 1940s or early 1950s comics, Lois began to suspect that Clark Kent was Superman, and started to make various attempts at uncovering his secret identity, all of which backfired (usually thanks to Superman's efforts).

In the Golden Age comics, Lois also had a niece named Susie Tompkins, whose main trait was getting into trouble by telling exaggerated tall tales and fibs to adults. Susie's last appearance was in 1955; subsequent comics presented Lois' only sibling, Lucy, as single and childless.

After DC instituted its multiverse system in the early 1960s for organizing its continuity, it was deemed that the Lois of the Golden Age comics (i.e., comics published from 1938 through the early 1950s) lived on the parallel world of "Earth-Two" versus the then-mainstream (Silver Age) universe of "Earth-One." In 1978's Action Comics #484, it was revealed that sometime in the 1950s, the Earth-Two Lois became infatuated with Clark Kent after the latter lost his memory of his superheroic identity (thanks to a spell cast by the old Justice Society of America enemy the Wizard), with the result of Clark acting more aggressive and extroverted. Clark and Lois began to date each other, and were soon married; however, during the honeymoon, Lois discovered that Clark was indeed Superman, and after recruiting the aid of the Wizard, restored Clark's memory. A series of stories in the 1970s and 1980s titled "Mr. and Mrs. Superman" presented the further adventures of the now-married Lois and Clark (in several of which Susie Tompkins made a return as a recurring character).

During the Crisis on Infinite Earths miniseries, the Earth-Two Lois Lane was seen for the last time, as she, the Earth-Two Superman, and the Earth-Prime Superboy are taken by Earth-Three's Alexander Luthor, Jr. into a paradise-like dimension at the end of the story (after all the parallel Earths, including Earth-Two, had been eliminated in favor of just one Earth), after which this version of Lois was (seemingly) permanently discarded from DC's continuity.<<

Admit it was surprising for me, when adding a few things to Supermanica, to see it's written assuming that "Earth-1" encompasses everything from 1938 to 1986, vs. the usual comic fan assumption everywhere else I've ever seen that Earth-1 = the Silver Age/Bronze Age period of c. mid-to-late 50's to 1986 (plus some earlier stories, such as Superboy material and a few Superman stories)...
Logged

MatterEaterLad
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1389


Silver Age Surfer


WWW
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2006, 02:14:17 AM »

Well, part of that comes from the fact that "The Great Superman Book" doesn't separate the two, but then, uses far fewer canonical sources and ended as far as entries early after the introduction of Earth-2...I like the Supermanica format, but it does frustrate me at the same time...but then I get frustrated that a great concept like introducing an Earth-2 to cover the Golden Age got rejected as the "real" story of the Golden Age because it was somehow set in stone that Clark-2 could only have worked for George Taylor at the Daily Star -- ESPECIALLY since where Clark worked at the dawn of Superman was in a constant flux for a few years anyways...I know a lot of people here dig Superboy Prime, and I like his character, but I can't believe that once writers introduced Earth Prime as the real world, it only took a few years for writers to introduce elements that showed it couldn't be the real world...

I liked the Flash a lot and showed some of my comics to my mom, but it was only when I showed her a JLA comic with Jay that she perked up and said "hey, that's the Flash"... Cool
Logged
TELLE
Supermanica Council
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1705



WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2006, 07:21:53 AM »

I would like to assume that the careers of the Golden Age characters are very similar to the careers of their E-2 counterparts but Supermanica format dictates that we must rely on canonical evidence, not assumption.  It is hard to think about The Wizard first appearing in the 1970s and not in some All-Star comic from the 1940s.  On the other hand, one of the great strengths of Supermanica is that it compels us to think of Superman as a person with a very long career about which the records are sometimes contradictory  --this is the true legacy of Superman, not the amputated, increasingly ahistorical versions that have emerged at various points in the career of Superman The Product (as opposed to "person").

A hard balance to strike.  I wonder how Bridwell chose what to cut and what to include.  Is his E-2 all pre-Weisinger?
Logged

Everything you ever wanted to
know about the classic Superman:
Supermanica
The Encyclopedia of Supermanic Biography!
(temporarily offline)
MatterEaterLad
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1389


Silver Age Surfer


WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2006, 04:06:52 PM »

I do agree with the format, and I just don't report any assumed stories or non-canonical references except for origin issues that I spell out in full.

One thing I wonder about is that as Supermanica gets bigger and better (and it does show up high in searches for many references on the internet) is that will the casual visitor who knows little of even pre-Crisis understand these very specific rules?  Maybe sometime there can be a detailed introduction page that explains the reasons behind the references -- things like the category "Golden Age" refers to Superman's Golden Age and not necessarily other DC heroes.
Logged
Super Monkey
Super
League of Supermen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3435



WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2006, 11:46:34 PM »

Well it is called the Supermanica, perhaps that might be a clue Wink

Well, many, many years from now, when we create an entry for everyone in the canonical books we have listed, then perhaps we can even bring up including those team books, but only after everyone has run out of info to add.

Whoever is still alive, would have to make that call Wink
Logged

"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
- Elliot S! Maggin
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

CURRENT FORUM

Archives: OLD FORUM  -  DCMB  -  KAL-L
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM
Entrance ·  Origin ·  K-Metal ·  The Living Legend ·  About the Comics ·  Novels ·  Encyclopaedia ·  The Screen ·  Costumes ·  Read Comics Online ·  Trophy Room ·  Creators ·  ES!M ·  Fans ·  Multimedia ·  Community ·  Supply Depot ·  Gift Shop ·  Guest Book ·  Contact & Credits ·  Links ·  Coming Attractions ·  Free E-mail ·  Forum

Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster
The LIVING LEGENDS of SUPERMAN! Adventures of Superman Volume 1!
Return to SUPERMAN THROUGH THE AGES!
The Complete Supply Depot for all your Superman needs!