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Author Topic: What Superman can teach Captain Marvel  (Read 25067 times)
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Permanus
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2006, 08:11:45 AM »

I never actually saw Mr. Tawny do anything in the comics; he'd just appear in the odd panel, like Billy and friends standing around the Christmas tree, and it would get me slightly discomfited: "Hmmm... Captain Marvel knows the Frost Flakes guy."

Boy, are DC doing a number on Captain Marvel. What's with the white costume? What's with the hood? He had the perfect costume; a great look. Now he looks really sappy, especially with those bolts of lightning coming out of his eyes.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2006, 08:36:12 AM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
SuperMonkey writes:

Quote
So why are you now "taking a moment to slam that Silver Age straw man, Mr. Tawny"?


Wow, SuperMonkey I was hoping you wouldn't go there.  This is really an awkward subject.  You see, this was Tawky and Julian last Fall:



Somehow in the last few months, though, it's all turned sour.  For a guy called "Tawky," that heartless Tiger never calls, he never writes...

First Lee and Farah, then Jen and Brad, now this.  :cry:


Despite any rumors you may have heard, Huckleberry Hound and I are "just friends."

Though somebody call me when Grape Ape is single again. Hotcha! Cheesy

Quote from: "Permanus"
Boy, are DC doing a number on Captain Marvel. What's with the white costume? What's with the hood? He had the perfect costume; a great look. Now he looks really sappy, especially with those bolts of lightning coming out of his eyes.


I don't know if the question is, "should Judd Winnick write Captain Marvel?"

I think the question ought to be, "should Judd Winnick write anything at all?"
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2006, 02:57:48 PM »

Quote from: "Permanus"
I never actually saw Mr. Tawny do anything in the comics; he'd just appear in the odd panel, like Billy and friends standing around the Christmas tree, and it would get me slightly discomfited: "Hmmm... Captain Marvel knows the Frost Flakes guy."


LOL!!! That made my day Smiley

Quote
Boy, are DC doing a number on Captain Marvel. What's with the white costume? What's with the hood? He had the perfect costume; a great look. Now he looks really sappy, especially with those bolts of lightning coming out of his eyes.


Reboots never work with him, he was prefect the 1st time.
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Gangbuster
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2006, 08:12:42 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"


Unlike Superman, our definition of who Captain Marvel is, and what his stories are about, is perpetually trapped in amber in the 1940s-1950s.


It could be argued, even though Superman has received continuous publication, that he too is trapped in a certain amber...that of the radio show, the Silver Age comics, and Superman: The Movie.

While most of us did not grow up listening to the Superman radio show, any attempt at having Clark Kent work somewhere besides the Daily Planet does not last, even though WGBS had a good run. Jimmy Olsen and Perry White are always there, even moreso since the radio show shaped the George Reeves TV series that came afterwards.

The Silver Age was the most creative period in Superman comics, and was the last big expansion of Superman's cast of characters. Superman's last great feat in popular culture was Superman: The Movie in 1978.

Superman has been unable to escape the limitations placed by these three sources (not that it's a bad thing.) Just ask "electric blue" Superman. DC even tried to escape these limitations by confining Superman within Byrne's new limitations of the mid-80s, and that didn't work either....everything that Byrne did has now been explained away as an anomaly caused by Superboy Prime hitting a wall. The best-selling Superman comic today, All-Star Superman, features the continuing adventures of the Silver Age Superman, and Silver-Age style writers have been hired for the regular titles.

Any Superman movie or TV show since 1978 has been held to the standard of Superman: The Movie, and Christopher Reeves' performance.

I agree with you that Captain Marvel is perpetually trapped in the amber of when he was most popular; I just think that the same thing has inevitably happened to Superman as well.
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Permanus
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2006, 09:41:48 PM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Reboots never work with him, he was prefect the 1st time.

Amen!
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Michel Weisnor
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2006, 12:00:19 AM »

Quote from: "Criadoman"
All I could think when I saw the picture above was "how long until he becomes the Spectre?"


SHAZAM!

http://romney.homestead.com/files/SHAZAM.gif

credit Kyle Baker (Thanks for Plastic Man series)
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stumpy
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« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2006, 05:39:09 AM »

Quote from: "Gangbuster Thorul"
Quote from: "JulianPerez"


Unlike Superman, our definition of who Captain Marvel is, and what his stories are about, is perpetually trapped in amber in the 1940s-1950s.


It could be argued, even though Superman has received continuous publication, that he too is trapped in a certain amber...that of the radio show, the Silver Age comics, and Superman: The Movie.

[...]

Superman has been unable to escape the limitations placed by these three sources (not that it's a bad thing.) Just ask "electric blue" Superman. DC even tried to escape these limitations by confining Superman within Byrne's new limitations of the mid-80s, and that didn't work either....everything that Byrne did has now been explained away as an anomaly caused by Superboy Prime hitting a wall. The best-selling Superman comic today, All-Star Superman, features the continuing adventures of the Silver Age Superman, and Silver-Age style writers have been hired for the regular titles.


[I originally wrote a long post whose basic theme was "Byrne: bad guy or villain?"  But I have elided most of that in favor of something a bit more connected to the post I am following.]

I wonder if the persistance and re-emergence of that Superman isn't because it hit such a chord with so many readers that just nothing else has really improved upon it?  Different is sometimes worse.  In the sort of evolutionary contour map that exists for comic characters, maybe nothing that Byrne did was really an improvement on what had gone before.

A similar dynamic may be at work with CM.  I was never a big fan and don't know too much about him that couldn't be learned from the Superman Vs. Shazam tabloid comic.  But, he was a successful character for quite a while and I wonder if it wasn't in part because he occupied sort of the Superman niche of his world.  In their shared post-Crisis world, there was an effort to further distinguish him from Superman, but, as successful as the Silver Age Superman is,  the a-little-different-from-Superman territory is tough ground to hold. I would argue that Byrne and his successors found out that even a character with a big S on his chest doesn't hold it very well without whatever magic they jettisoned from the previous version.  Add to that the fact that the Superman fans already have a character and finding a successful niche for Cap gets even tougher.

Anyway, I think that's part of the dilemma with regard to this thread: whatever lessons the CM team might learn from the S-books, they have to put them to use in a way that doesn't make Captain Marvel into a Superman clone.  There is arguably only room for one Superman in continuity (as previous incarnations of Supergirl books, for instance, have discovered) and even he really only seems to achieve peak success when characterized in a certain way.
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Permanus
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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2006, 12:57:14 PM »

Quote from: "stumpy"
Anyway, I think that's part of the dilemma with regard to this thread: whatever lessons the CM team might learn from the S-books, they have to put them to use in a way that doesn't make Captain Marvel into a Superman clone.  There is arguably only room for one Superman in continuity (as previous incarnations of Supergirl books, for instance, have discovered) and even he really only seems to achieve peak success when characterized in a certain way.

You're quite right; it's necessary to differentiate between Superman and Captain Marvel, and DC have been trying to do this up to a point: for instance, they've established the Big Red Cheese as the magical version of Superman, who deals with the ethereal stuff that Superman can't cope with. This doesn't really gibe, though, because although Captain Marvel's origins are mystical in nature, his arch-enemy isn't some sort of evil wizard, but a mad scientist. DC have had this bee in their bonnet about magic for some time now, and I can't help thinking they're trying to turn Captain Marvel into some sort of Harry Potter secondrater.

If you want to do Captain Marvel right, you have to explore the two elements that make him significantly different from Superman: firstly, the fact that his adventures are lighthearted and fun (apart from the one about nuclear war, okay), and secondly, he spends half his time as a kid. To be honest, this second feature, which is so rich in possibilities has never been explored satisfactorily. In his original inception, Billy Batson is a newscaster; now how many children do you know who do that? In the recent "First Thunder" series, he's a homeless child. Please, don't be so morbid. I suspect that the key to getting Cap right would have to do with portraying Billy not as some homeless, tragic orphan who had to grow up before his time, but as a regular kid. Or even better, Bart Simpson. Just imagine a story in which Billy Batson is depicted as an irresponsible, mischievous little boy who just happens to turn into the World's Mightiest Mortal, with the wisdom of Solomon. Hilarity cannot fail to ensue. He wouldn't even need any enemies, Cap would just sort out the situations that Billy caused.
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