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Author Topic: What Superman can teach Captain Marvel  (Read 24874 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2006, 04:40:57 AM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
Superman's evolution has worked precisely because he never went out of print. Changes happened for the most part gradually and painlessly as he adapted to the needs of each new era. That's not true for Cap, so changing him enough to "work" in the modern era is tantamount to creating a new character from wholecloth


I agree - and what I'm arguing is that a really severe revamp, albeit one with imaginative power, wouldn't be quite so bad an idea.

Whether someone that takes the project has the chops for it is another question entirely, of course, I'm just saying that perhaps the reason Cap hasn't done so well or been as good is not because writers don't get the spirit of the original, but because Captain Marvel suffers from permanent arrested development.

Quote from: "nightwing"
The frank truth is Cap has never worked as a character since his Fawcett days. Whether this is because the various re-treads have changed him too much or not enough is a matter for debate. But when you look at his history it's pretty cut and dried: 40s to 50s = biggest thing on the stands, 70s to today = FLOP. So you can't blame people for thinking Fawcett "got" Cap in ways no one else ever has.


People say the same about Plastic Man; nobody but Cole got him. but I'd argue that Plas suffered from two problems that are identical to Captain Marvel's:

1) conscientious, nostalgic aping of the original stories, but in a context where that aping just doesn't work. Instead of capturing the spirit of the original, it literally duplicates the way they chose to tell their stories.

2) Nobody's really been assigned to Plastic Man that would get the character. As much as I admire Martin Pasko for his incredible Superman and Wonder Woman stories, he was not a good fit for Plastic Man, and certainly not a good fit for Cole-aping.

The only works I'd argue that can't be done without the original creator and original set of circumstances that produced them, are deeply personal works that only the original creator understood. An example would be the Steve Gerber OMEGA THE UNKNOWN or HOWARD THE DUCK, and possibly DEFENDERS, or the Jack Kirby "Fourth World" series.

Quote from: "SuperMonkey"
So in the 1970's, DC brought back C.C. Beck to draw Captian Marvel, but who didn't they bring back?

That's right, Otto Binder.

And thus, while it has been the best DC Cap they made (and I will still get the Showcase collection of it), it just can't compare to Otto Binder's Marvel. Truth is, nothing can.


Well, let me see if I get what you're saying: Marvel Family was sort of like the Lee/Kirby FANTASTIC FOUR in the sense that it was a product of two creators coming together that were bigger than the sum of their parts, who caught lightning in a bottle?

...actually, this may be it.

Maybe it was a unique combination of factors and talents those two men had. However, I'm inclined to think not, because unlike FANTASTIC FOUR, which came from nowhere and was very personal, the Marvel Family, as extraordinary an achievement as it was, was a comic dominated by one great idea (kid becomes an adult hero) that was very much a product of the comics world that produced it, surrounded by periphery like the Talking Tiger and Uncle Marvel that can be jettisoned. In other words, I suspect the reason that the revamps haven't worked is not because a revamp is an exercise in futility for a work only the original creators really got: it's more a combination of bad luck and failure to place talent properly.

If they get someone like, say, Dan Slott or Busiek to write Captain Marvel, now that's different.

There is a category of characters that are so very unintuitive, whose central idea is hard to grasp and idiosyncratic, that consequently they are almost never written correctly. Doctor Strange is another such character, as is the Doom Patrol.

(Green Arrow's solo ventures, I'd argue, have never worked not because he's a character that's hard to grasp, but because he's a character, less common at DC but certainly more common at team-centered Marvel, whose best contributions are to group dynamic and teams; take GA out of the Sattellite League and that whole dynamic and he's less fun and has less to do).

Quote from: "SuperMonkey"
Since then DC has restarted, revamped and updated Captain Marvel many times! Always tryng to make him more modern and each and every single time, they bombed.


Well, the Ordway POWER OF SHAZAM! lasted for several years as a series; certainly not a raging blockbuster on the level of the Busiek AVENGERS, but certainly many more issues than the original HAWKMAN series (which ended at 23 before becoming HAWKMAN AND THE ATOM), the 1967 SPECTRE series (which lasted for 10 issues) or HOWARD THE DUCK (a raging success, but one that only lasted 30+ issues) or the Marv Woflman NOVA (which lasted a little more than two years). And it should be noted that the comics climate in the bust era 1990s was significantly less healthy than today.

I don't know if that's a fair criticism - not because some of the Captain Marvel reboots weren't clueless (they were, especially the 1980s SHAZAM! series, which totally missed the point of Captain Marvel and had him be merely an adult Billy Batson), but because actually, I'd argue the revamps, especially the Jerry Ordway one, didn't go far ENOUGH.
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006, 05:10:06 AM »

Well, I don't know if you seen the new one, which IMO goes too far, but you might like it, LOL.

The whole Marvel Family gets a make over.

Captain Marvel nows wears a white supersuit with a hood.
Captain Marvel Jr. nows wears the classic red superuit and is all buff, he now looks how Captain marvel used to look.
Mary Marvel also gets a new white supersuit.

The series now has heavy focus on Magic.

image: http://www.marvelfamily.com/images/misc/NewMF.jpg

some more:

Quote
This risky move by DC features a hooded Captain Marvel in a redesigned white uniform, a possibly promoted Captain Marvel, Jr.also in a redesigned uniform (lifting Captain Marvel's traditional red and gold color scheme and abandoning his own traditional blue) and a slightly redesigned Mary Marvel. Rumors are also swirling that one of the characters will be renamed Shazam.

The risk is the alienation of old-time Captain Marvel fans (some of whom have been none too happy with DC's treatment of the Big Red Cheese of late) as well newer fans who have given DC some leeway in the treatment of their hero.

It remains to be seen if writer Judd Winick can turn the tide and lure in new in readers without shedding the old ones. Winick has asked that Captain Marvel fans give the new series a chance. While it's too early to tell what this new series will bring, one thing is for certain as Winick himself mentioned in an online interview, The Big Red Cheese has left the building at DC.


Interview highlights from an interview with Judd Winick:

    * Winick: So – long story short, I love Captain Marvel – I’ve wanted to do Captain Marvel for years.
    * Winick: He lacks an identity. Part of it is because, like the major characters in the DCU, he’s incredibly old.
    * Winick: he’s been another version of Superman. Yes, he says a magic word and gets his powers from the gods, but he still puts on a cape, has dark hair, and is exactly the same height as Superman. He needed his own identity.
    * Winick: This will be the new playground of Captain Marvel – the realm of magic.
    * Winick: There is going to be a shakeup. Thing will change.
    * Winick: My big quote on this is that, “’the big red cheese’ is dead,” meaning that the silliness and the ridiculousness that have surrounded Captain Marvel is gone. We’re not looking at him that way. You keep that in there, and people end up not taking him seriously.
    * Winick: We’re cleaning house – no fat guys in red suits with their guts hanging out flying around! There’s only one fat guy in a red suit that flies around, and that’s Santa – not Uncle Marvel.
    * Winick: There is something cool about Tawny ... a dandy who’s a talking tiger just doesn’t cut it today. I want to be faithful to the original, but at the same time, make it work now.
    * Porter: I think we're hoping this book will attract a diverse group of readers and hopefully this will appeal to the majority of them. With the magical and mystical themes in Trials of Shazam, we hope a Vertigo reader will feel at home because they are generally used to a more experimental looking style of art.
    * Porter: Needless to say, I jumped at the chance to work on the Big Red Cheese and then proceeded to do back flips down the hallway out of excitement.
    * Porter: I've had a fond feeling for the Big Red Lug for a long time. It all started way back when there was that live action TV series.
    * Porter: I don't want to give anything away about the plan for the series so I will just say that there are huge changes for the Marvel family and characters will be redefined.
    * Porter: It's 22 pages of escapism and modern day mythology. If you're not familiar with the Marvel Family, then this a great series for you to start with because it's all being redefined. And if you're a veteran Marvel-ite, I promise you that you will be reading work that was created with passion and a respect for the characters.
    * Winick: Captain Marvel Jr. is no longer going to be called Captain Marvel Jr.
    * Winick: Billy Batson’s upgrade will be another key part of the story, as he takes on the role of the former wizard Shazam ... Billy Batson’s character will remain the same, only “kicked upstairs to management.”
    * Winink: “I’m kind of a Goth kid, and I’d like to tap into that.”

sources: http://www.marvelfamily.com/


Are you happy now?



I am not  Sad
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2006, 05:14:33 AM »

Quote from: "MatterEaterLad"
I have only one thing to add...

"Big Dog, Big Dog, Bow Wow Wow...We'll Fight Evil, Now, Now, Now!" --Space Canine Patrol Agency

Silliness doesn't seem to be particularly confined to any five year interval in Superman, despite his evolution, but it often broke out in different ways in the characters around him...


True - but I've always argued that in any kind of series, there should be elements that let you do atypical kinds of stories, e.g. Mxyzptlk allowing for comedy stories, the Phantom Zone for weird horror stories, etc. There's a difference between having an outlet for that sort of thing among the characters around Superman, and having that sort of thing be the theme of his main book regularly.
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2006, 06:00:22 AM »

As little as I like Judd "I brought back Jason Todd" Winnick and have never seen him do a single story that I really LIKE, as much resistance as I mentally try to muster to everything he said here...I really can't find it in me to disagree with many things he said. He slammed Mr. Tawny, the Scrappy-Doo of the Marvel Family, and how could I possibly be against that? Cheesy Winnick says "I don't think an idea like that would work today," but what Judd fails to point out is that Mr. Tawny was ALWAYS snotty and useless. Like I said, he's the "shark jump" point.

Though I can't help but feel there's something rather insincere about Winnick flogging the dead horse of the Lieutenant Marvels. "Hey, I'm cool! Look! I don't like these guys!" For Godsakes, the Lieutenant Marvels haven't shown up in more than 20 years, and before that, they were peripheral figures at best! Sure, Fat Marvel cut a really undignified visual, and perhaps its for the best he isn't being used again, but this is a little like a Superman writer taking over and pointing out that he isn't going to use Zha-Vam. Huh?

And the whole "he's an inferior Superman" thing gets my goat, because it just isn't true, and shows a lack of understanding of some of the things that make CM unique. Also, there's a difference between doing a revamp that contemporizes a character, and a revamp that misses the point and divorces them from their essential absurdity; in other words, ditch the Goatman, but keep the Big Red Cheese moniker.

On the other hand, the prospect of Billy Batson taking over for the Wizard Shazam is an idea that is one of the more intriguing yet, and I don't find it threatening in the least.

I've never liked the concept of "compressed time" whereby nonsense is perpetrated on the Marvel and DC universes like "the Marvel Universe has only been around for thirteen years," which gets a spit-take from me every time. I'm entirely against the concept of what Stan Lee calls "the illusion of change," where a status quo is perpetually maintained and it only LOOKS like it will be altered. As in, no matter how bad Reed and Sue's marital problems get, they will never be divorced or separated permanently. If a world is supposed to be real, if it's supposed to have any versimilitude at all, characters should grow and change in lasting ways - and sometimes grow old, too. And sometimes receive these sort of "promotions." And sometimes they should quit and take new jobs and maybe even die.

Charlie Brown will never kick that football, but we're not supposed to accept Charlie Brown as "real," either, or care about him, at least in the way we should treat, say, the Vision and the Scarlet Witch.

This is why there's such a fan appeal for LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES and X-MEN: these characters grew up while we watched them. The book was about them being teenagers, but they eventually stopped being teenagers. When Duo Damsel and Bouncing Boy got married, it was for real; not a hoax, dream or Imaginary Story that afterward everything would return to the fossilized status quo. When Marvel Girl died, she died for real (which is why I'd argue her resurrection, as well thought out as it was, was the biggest break of trust with an audience yet perpetrated).
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2006, 11:56:08 AM »

Super Monkey, those quotes are just about the saddest thing I've ever read.
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2006, 12:30:59 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
As little as I like Judd "I brought back Jason Todd" Winnick

Loeb opened the genie on that particular bottle, and Winick simply stepped through it.  

Like his ex-roommate Brad Meltzer, I have a hard time getting a good read on Winick.  There's stuff of his where I think he did good (Exiles, briniging back the Guardians -- it was about darn time!), and there's times when I think his first, best destiny should be writing Barry Ween and he should stop pfutzing in the DCverse altogether.  His Captain Marvel sounds kind of like Juniper Lee, which could be promising.
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2006, 02:37:54 PM »

Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Who do we have to credit for nearly everything that we know and love about Superman in the Silver Age?


Mort Weisinger?
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2006, 03:05:13 PM »

Quote from: "Gary"
Quote from: "Super Monkey"
Who do we have to credit for nearly everything that we know and love about Superman in the Silver Age?


Mort Weisinger?


He was Smart enough to hire the right people.

read this thread for the full list:

http://superman.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1867
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