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Author Topic: Infinite Crisis: The Novel  (Read 5567 times)
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Superman Forever
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2006, 05:27:16 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
I can see an INFINITE CRISIS movie.


One interesting theme about INFINITE CRISIS that I did like was the idea that you can behave badly and it is still possible to redeem yourself if you choose to behave heroically; a very Englehart or Busiek-esque theme. If you think about it, the villains of the story insist that the DC characters are broken goods: Superboy-Prime when confronted by Hal Jordan says "You're the worst of them all." Even Conner himself finally makes the choice towards heroism, despite his Luthor heritage.

There was a Busiek introduction to a book once, where King Kurt said something to the effect, when confronted with heroes behaving badly like Hal's DUI: "They're heroes, people. Don't worry, they can bounce back."

And for the most part, the DC Trifecta of Superman Batman and Wonder Woman did just that in the series.


You guys can't haave it both ways. If it's okay to Busiek and Johns to corrupt characters just to redeem then after in a herioc story, it should be okay to Bryne to. Infinite Crisis is not different than the Phanton Zone criminals execution story and later Exile in Space. Morrison and Waid stories are closer to Maggin in that aspect because their Superman would never fail. Ingnoring thar, it's not a discussion based on fact, but on favorite writers.
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2006, 07:55:15 PM »

Quote from: "Superman Forever"
Quote from: "JulianPerez"
I can see an INFINITE CRISIS movie.


One interesting theme about INFINITE CRISIS that I did like was the idea that you can behave badly and it is still possible to redeem yourself if you choose to behave heroically; a very Englehart or Busiek-esque theme. If you think about it, the villains of the story insist that the DC characters are broken goods: Superboy-Prime when confronted by Hal Jordan says "You're the worst of them all." Even Conner himself finally makes the choice towards heroism, despite his Luthor heritage.

There was a Busiek introduction to a book once, where King Kurt said something to the effect, when confronted with heroes behaving badly like Hal's DUI: "They're heroes, people. Don't worry, they can bounce back."

And for the most part, the DC Trifecta of Superman Batman and Wonder Woman did just that in the series.


You guys can't haave it both ways. If it's okay to Busiek and Johns to corrupt characters just to redeem then after in a herioc story, it should be okay to Bryne to. Infinite Crisis is not different than the Phanton Zone criminals execution story and later Exile in Space. Morrison and Waid stories are closer to Maggin in that aspect because their Superman would never fail. Ingnoring thar, it's not a discussion based on fact, but on favorite writers.


Busiek had nothing to do with IC, that POS was all Johns fault, and yes he is just as bad as Bryne. Except that Johns just has really bad taste and no talent but otherwise seems like a nice guy while Byrne really is a supreme (BEEP) and he has no talent and the worse taste ever in all things in life.

Busiek took Johns' bloody remains and gave it dignity and respect.
Superman comics are now readable, that hasn't happen in about 20 years! Superman actually acts like Superman now, that hasn't happen in about 20 years! At least not in the Superman books.

oh, IMHO Wink
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2006, 08:01:53 PM »

Those super pets from the Silver Age, they have no dang opinions... Cool
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2006, 09:13:36 PM »

Quote from: "Superman Forever"
You guys can't haave it both ways. If it's okay to Busiek and Johns to corrupt characters just to redeem then after in a herioc story, it should be okay to Bryne to. Infinite Crisis is not different than the Phanton Zone criminals execution story and later Exile in Space. Morrison and Waid stories are closer to Maggin in that aspect because their Superman would never fail. Ingnoring thar, it's not a discussion based on fact, but on favorite writers.


Did Superman kill people in IC, and I just forgot to pick up that issue? I'm pretty sure he didn't.

Though I'm absolutely sure that Superman was tempted to. When Batman said "The last time you ever inspired anybody, Superman, was when you were dead," if it was me, I would have given 'ol Bat-Dick a sock to the jaw that sends him halfway to Alpha Centauri.

"Bet you're 'inspiring' a lot of people now, huh?"

The two situations are not remotely compatible.

One has a Superman that behaved extremely out of character in an overkill situation concocted by the writer to deliberately transfer an unsavory element to a heroic character for shock value.

As others have pointed out, the situation where Superman killed in the Pocket Universe, is a situation that only exists because the writer created it. However, Johns did not create the situation Superman faced in INFINITE CRISIS; other writers did. He did solve it, though and got the character through it. Johns did not create Bat-Dick; he got rid of Bat-Dick. He did not create Wonder Woman, Klingon; but you'll better believe he got her through that. The characters have been restored to their correct characterizations after gradual drift as a direct result of the events of INFINITE CRISIS.

The thing a lot of people miss about the Earth-2 Superman's actions, is that he was misguided in the series NOT because he was old-fashoined and irrelevant (the fact that he was such a part of the climax of the book suggests otherwise); he was misguided in the series because he does not believe it is possible for a character to continue to be a hero after missteps.

I for one, did not enjoy EMERALD TWILIGHT. In fact, if I ever get my hands on real power, you'd better believe everyone involved is going to a labor camp. Still, I don't believe Hal is now permanently a villain and that he can't be accepted as a heroic character again.

Quote from: "SuperMonkey"
Busiek had nothing to do with IC, that POS was all Johns fault, and yes he is just as bad as Bryne. Except that Johns just has really bad taste and no talent but otherwise seems like a nice guy while Byrne really is a supreme (BEEP) and he has no talent and the worse taste ever in all things in life.

Busiek took Johns' bloody remains and gave it dignity and respect.
Superman comics are now readable, that hasn't happen in about 20 years! Superman actually acts like Superman now, that hasn't happen in about 20 years! At least not in the Superman books.

oh, IMHO


By the way...what Geoff Johns book have you ever read, ever?

Specific examples, please. Vague summaries on another website do not count. By the way, I found it ironic as hell that the website that brought us our INFINITE CRISIS news was never questioned, but when they started dissing SUPERMAN RETURNS, suddenly everything they said became suspect.

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, I'm just saying if you haven't read anything, you're not entitled to one at all.

When I come down on Gerry Conway, that's because I'm up to my armpits in Conway-smeared comics; from his cliche-ridden ARAK, SON OF THUNDER to his CRAPTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (it's not called that, but it should be).

I swear, Conway books are like cockroaches, they BREED. When somebody wants to sell me their comics, the conversation goes a little like this:

"Come on over, Julian. I have some great books by great writers. I have some of the Don MacGregor KILLRAVEN, the Doug Moench MASTER OF KUNG FU...and some other very interesting comics."

" 'Some other very interesting comics?' Wait...you don't mean you have some Gerry Conway books, don't you?"

"Kkkkkkt! Whoa, can't hear you, the connection went bad there for a second..."


( With all due apologies to X-Entertainment.  Cheesy )
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Michel Weisnor
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2006, 12:01:20 AM »

I really enjoy Johns' ideas and plots until he decides to add over excessive violence. Almost every storyline he's written relies at some point on blood red pages. That said, I should have known better about IC.

BTW, after 52* he's preparing for a Justice League/Justice Society crossover followed by another mega event. Again, Power Girl is a major player.
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2006, 03:01:54 AM »

Quote from: "Michel Weisnor"
I really enjoy Johns' ideas and plots until he decides to add over excessive violence. Almost every storyline he's written relies at some point on blood red pages. That said, I should have known better about IC.

BTW, after 52* he's preparing for a Justice League/Justice Society crossover followed by another mega event. Again, Power Girl is a major player.


Someone better clear out a refrigerator then :?


Quote
Specific examples, please.


Ok...

You know, Johns claims that he is a big fan of the Silver Age, but all he ever does it take some odd character from the 60's and write them completely out of character the kills them or makes them into a killer.

Earth-2 Superman and Lois Lane were created as tributes to the original Golden Age versions. They were two of the characters from the greatest comic book universe ever created: The Pre-Crisis DC Universe. The big bad wolfman, saved them for a reason, just in case anyone wanted to bring them back. Johns did.. just to kill them off!

Superboy-Prime was created a tribute to the Silver Age Superboy and was one of the final characters created by Elliot S! Maggin. The wolfman saved him, just in case someone wanted to use him again, and boy did Johns ever use him, by writing him completely out of character and making him into a gore crazed serial killer!!!

Finally, there was A Luthor of Earth-3, who's father was a Superhero and Mother was Lois Lane, on Earth-3 ALL Luthors were pure good and all Earth-2 hero counterparts were evil, that's Earth-3 in a nutshell. Johns, I guess, never read a Earth-3 story in his life, and figured, hey he is a Luthor so I guess he must be a bad guy, and missed the whole point of the character and wrote him completely out of character and of course got him killed!!!

You know for a guy who is such a big pre-crisis fan he sure went out of his way to kill off all the remaining pre-crisis characters, well expect for the one he turn into a gore-craze killer. Speaking of which, Johns answer for why DC has sucked for the past 20 years was because they sucked on Purpose!!! You see it was all part of the big plan, you see Superboy-Prime was punching some invisible wall, that explains it. That has to be up there with the worst ideas ever in the history of comics.
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2006, 03:13:55 AM »

I continue to believe that all residents of the paradise dimension went insane because they had only post-Crisis comics to read...
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Kurt Busiek
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2006, 05:57:35 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
When I come down on Gerry Conway, that's because I'm up to my armpits in Conway-smeared comics; from his cliche-ridden ARAK, SON OF THUNDER to his CRAPTACULAR SPIDER-MAN (it's not called that, but it should be).


Gerry no write ARAK.  Roy write ARAK.

kdb
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